General A different approach to lands in cube...

This post has been been floating around in my head for months now, I've got a lot of ground to cover, and it ultimately may not be something I follow through on. But I wanted to get the idea out there.

In the past I dabbled in the WoW TCG. The game is comparable to Magic in many ways, but the standout difference for me is the resource system. There aren't "colors," but you do select a hero who places restrictions on what cards you can include in your deck (generally, spells are restricted by class, creatures are restricted by faction). Every turn, you may put a card from your hand face down as a resource. Also, quest cards can be played face up as a resource, and at any point in the game you can complete the quest (usually by paying mana) and getting a small reward (usually up to a card's worth of value). After the quest is completed, it is turned face down and remains an available resource.

This system isn't perfect: selecting the proper card to play as a resource is a difficult skill; also the presence of cards that are "better" at being resources makes for feel-bad when you have to play your spells as resources now and potentially draw dedicated resources later.

Still, I want to experiment with altering Magic's rules for lands to be similar to WoW TCGS - you can cash in any card in your hand for a land. My plan is to take my long dormant "normal" cube and convert it to best make use of these alternate land rules.

I've thought some different ways to implement such a radical change. Here are my initial thoughts:

- Any time you could play a land and have a land play, you may exile a card from your hand. If you do, you may put a basic land from outside the game onto the battlefield (possibly tapped, more on that later).

- Any time you are instructed to search your library for a card, if that card could be a basic land, you may find a basic land of your choosing from outside the game. This is so things like Rampant Growth are still playable.

- Players may not put basic lands into their deck during construction, and all basics should be removed from the deck between games. However, the basics are not tokens; gameplay may put basics into zones other than the battlefield (graveyard and exile are probably obvious, but things like Upheaval and Plow Under can get them to other zones).

Those are the base level rules. I think they are pretty intuitive, and most players won't have trouble "getting" it, even if finding the optimal strategy takes some adjusting.

So far, what have we accomplished? Let's count:

1) Players will never draw too many or two few lands (assuming there's only a limited selection of non-basics).

2) Deck-building time is drastically reduced: just review your picks, and make a few cuts. Initially, I was thinking you play every card you draft, but being able to cut your worst few picks allows for some streamlining.

3) When playing, players are always "drawing live," and can't brick with a land draw. This also makes card draw much more powerful, so care must be taken in cube construction. Conversely, card selection is somewhat weaker, as you don't need to ensure skipping land draws.

4) Any cards that would be sideboard-only can now stay in the main deck and be pitched for lands if they are unnecessary.

5) Players are only keeping track of their deck and basics are communal, so there is only one pile of cards for them to keep track of - makes it easier to combat theft when playing at public events.

Now, for the important issue: If you can always get any color of land, how do we prevent drafters from simply always taking the best card in a pack and just jamming a rainbow deck?

Well, I suppose that's always going to be a risk - but perhaps part of the fun, if kept within reason. If a game goes long, the fact that anything could happen is going to make for quite the spectacle. In cube design, the risk can be mitigated by avoiding having too many powerful spells that only have a single C in their casting cost. This might leave a lot of cube "staples" on the bench, but keeps the focus on 2 color decks with splashes. This isn't to say I want to avoid the inclusion of single C spells entirely, but there should be a noticeable bump in power level from a 5C card to a 4CC card, or even a 1C card to a CC card.

The other way to encourage staying in colors is by placing restrictions on how basics can enter the battlefield untapped. I've thought up a system, and I'm looking for some feedback on it:

0) Assumptions: Nonbasic land in the cube that can produce colored mana all enter the battlefield tapped. Lands that only fix mana are not put into the cube. Artifact based mana fixing is very weak, if available at all. Overall power level of artifacts would also be down a notch or two.

1) Pre-Game, players select and announce their primary and secondary colors. Players may change their selections between games/matches, but not after seeing their opening hands.

2) Basic Lands for your primary color always enter the battlefield untapped.

3) Basic Lands for your secondary color enter the battlefield tapped unless you pay 1 life.

4) All other Basic Lands enter the battlefield tapped unless you pay 3 life.

5) Each player skips the first 3 points of life they would pay for lands to enter untapped.

6) Basic lands that are physically in hand (due to Cultivate, Boomerang, Demonic Tutor, etc) enter the battlefield untapped.

I wanted the life-loss to feel roughly equivalent to a mana base that contained fetches and shocks. Limit yourself to two colors, and you pay almost no life over the course of the game and have your lands enter all untapped. More than that requires either the tempo-loss of lands that ETBT or significant life loss.

I know this post is a lot to digest, but I'd really appreciate some critical feedback: what do you think would work, what wouldn't work, what other considerations would have to be made for cube construction, etc.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
It's an interesting idea. Thoughts:
1) My god you will have to draft a lot of cards. Assuming we still want 40 card decks, this means you need 40 playables instead of the regular ~23.
2) The exile clause does deal with the regular memory magic problem of Meloku being horribly broken (Pick up my land, make a 1/1, cast whatever spell that land was), good catch
 
It's an interesting idea. Thoughts:
1) My god you will have to draft a lot of cards. Assuming we still want 40 card decks, this means you need 40 playables instead of the regular ~23.
2) The exile clause does deal with the regular memory magic problem of Meloku being horribly broken (Pick up my land, make a 1/1, cast whatever spell that land was), good catch

1) Well, you don't quite need 40 playables as the worst cards, those can be what you pitch for lands. And the rules allow you to (eventually) build up to cast every spell in your deck. Still, on average, if every deck has a couple too many "bricks," there are two options: Decide that's okay, as it's variance that adds some drama to draw steps. Or, the other direction, I can tweak some variables, like adding an extra card or two into each pack, or making the minimum deck size lower by a few cards.
2) The purpose of exiling a card and getting a specific basic was primarily for two reasons: First, I wanted each land play to be a specific basic land - which makes sequencing your land plays important. Physically using the basic land is also much easier for memory purposes. The other primary reason for exiling is because I wanted choosing which card to "give up" for a land to be a permanent decision. Avoiding weird/broken/unintended interactions like you brought up with Meloku is mostly just a bonus.
 

CML

Contributor
It's such a radical change that there's no way to see how it works without trying it.

For what it's worth, I think it's worth trying, and remember similar ideas being thrown around in the contexts of both combo cube ("all lands are rainbow lands") and regular old limited ("you can't abuse it, so why not just have a stack of spells and a stack of lands?")

I admire the attempt to make for fewer "non-games" and think it has a lot of potential since adding tons of fixing is a great way to do this already. Mulligans to 7 to 6-scry-1 to 6 to 5-scry-1 (per Hannes) have also been a huge hit over here
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
This is an interesting approach, but somehow I had the impression that although the WoW TCG lands mechanics was liked intellectually, people found it to produce boring and repetitive games. Somehow the tension of playing through games where mana doesn't flow perfectly added to the experience, and made games more varied.

But maybe that's just a heady mixture of Stockholm syndrome and Rosewaterian design-speak talking.

For what it's worth Netrunner has a very novel and pleasing take on resource management.
 
This is an interesting approach, but somehow I had the impression that although the WoW TCG lands mechanics was liked intellectually, people found it to produce boring and repetitive games. Somehow the tension of playing through games where mana doesn't flow perfectly added to the experience, and made games more varied.

But maybe that's just a heady mixture of Stockholm syndrome and Rosewaterian design-speak talking.

For what it's worth Netrunner has a very novel and pleasing take on resource management.

I'll agree, the land system in Magic definitely does add variance and therefore, tension. The WoWTCG resource system removes a hefty chunk of said variance. Also, if the power level of the cards in a deck is relatively flat, then the variance is limited to how well you end up curving and/or how well you draw once in top-deck mode. But I also imagine that repetitiveness to be much more prevalent in constructed formats, not limited. Magic has had similar problems with constructed as well - look at Standard right now: three color mana bases that are relatively low risk means you get to play all the best cards and rarely encounter color screw, while the variable cost spells (x spells, bloodrush, Fuse) provide powerful options during both mana floods and shortages.

Cryptozoic (current custodians of WoWTCG) also agree with your logic. Their upcoming online-only TCG, Hex, borrows heavily from Magic. Relevant to our discussion, it's also using dedicated resource cards: they are called "basic resources" and they come in 5 colors. There are some nuances that I won't detail, but I'm sure players are going to say "Mountain" and "Red" instead of "Ruby" and so on. There is a tiny-bit of built in flood mitigation as you do have an avatar which has a (weak) activated ability. When asked why they didn't go with something similar to WoW, the designers specifically said the game needed the simplicity of dedicated resources AND the accompanying variance of flood/screw to attract and retain new casual players.

But as a cube designer, I'm not trying to rope in new-to-magic players and make sure everyone gets a win or two. My target audience is existing magic players who already have a decent amount of skill and would appreciate the move towards less variance. We cube because we want to battle, and while we want to win, when our opponents lose to flood or screw, it ends up being a hollow victory. Over an extended period of time, too much consistency could certainly get boring, but even then, how many drafts would that take to reach that boredom point? And once you reach that point, there are probably ways to tweak the cube design and make things more spicy. I guess my ultimate goal is to make a "better" version of Magic that still resembles the existing game enough to be quickly accessible. It might not be "better" for a majority of players out there, but my target here is cubers (my playgroup, for starters).

At this point, I've fully talked myself into this. I'm going to try this out when I get a chance (which, could be awhile) and report back.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I've seen how HexTCG handles it. Eric is supposed to write a front-page post about that game (*ahem*). Maybe you should pester him publicly and frequently.
 
I figured you had probably read up on Hex, Jason, but I try to include relevant details for others that may be reading and, in case I've based an argument on a falsehood, someone can point out my mistake and I can learn something.

Hex is easily the largest scale launch of a TCG since WoW. In retrospect, I'm surprised that an online-only TCG from a company with a high pedigree has taken this long to come to market. If Hex lives up to the hype they are generating, it will quickly overtake MTGO. Sadly, that's also a commentary on MTGO being embarrassingly behind the times (the MTGO beta client is a drastic improvement, but still feels outdated).

But my whole point of bringing up Hex was to hammer home that players have complained about mana screw for twenty years. Several games with high critical praise have attempted to compete against Magic for market share, and most have failed (or remained very niche). With all that data available, the competitor that finally looks like it has the best shot to compete with Magic isn't trying to avoid mana screw: instead they acknowledge that variance is important for player retention. It's similar to poker: skill will give you the edge long-term, but luck plays enough of a role to influence the outcome of individual games. No one wants to play a game they can't win.

I look forward to hearing what Eric has to say about Hex. Is it a more general article about the game and/or how it compares to Magic? Or is there something that he's identified as relevant to cubing? I also backed Hex, as it looks way better than MTGO. Looks can be deceiving, but from what I've heard, Cryptozoic has a lot of ex-Blizzard employees, and Blizzard wrote the book on "our product wasn't an original idea, but put the best out there anyways."
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I figured you had probably read up on Hex, Jason, but I try to include relevant details for others that may be reading and, in case I've based an argument on a falsehood, someone can point out my mistake and I can learn something.

Hex is easily the largest scale launch of a TCG since WoW. In retrospect, I'm surprised that an online-only TCG from a company with a high pedigree has taken this long to come to market. If Hex lives up to the hype they are generating, it will quickly overtake MTGO. Sadly, that's also a commentary on MTGO being embarrassingly behind the times (the MTGO beta client is a drastic improvement, but still feels outdated).

But my whole point of bringing up Hex was to hammer home that players have complained about mana screw for twenty years. Several games with high critical praise have attempted to compete against Magic for market share, and most have failed (or remained very niche). With all that data available, the competitor that finally looks like it has the best shot to compete with Magic isn't trying to avoid mana screw: instead they acknowledge that variance is important for player retention. It's similar to poker: skill will give you the edge long-term, but luck plays enough of a role to influence the outcome of individual games. No one wants to play a game they can't win.

I look forward to hearing what Eric has to say about Hex. Is it a more general article about the game and/or how it compares to Magic? Or is there something that he's identified as relevant to cubing? I also backed Hex, as it looks way better than MTGO. Looks can be deceiving, but from what I've heard, Cryptozoic has a lot of ex-Blizzard employees, and Blizzard wrote the book on "our product wasn't an original idea, but put the best out there anyways."

Yeah, I wasn't trying to begrudge you for mentioning Hex, apologies if my tone came off badly. My main intent was to not-so-subtly prod Eric into writing his article. What's it about? You'll find out tonight when it goes online. Right?
 
When I write longer forum posts I tend to skew more like I'm writing an article and less like I'm having a one-on-one conversation - because it's not one-on-one, everyone can read it. For multiple reasons, I can spend a couple hours on posts, heavily editing what I've written. When I invest the time, it really forces me to break down what I'm saying, and helps me gain a deeper understanding of what I'm talking about. It also reduces the times where I'm making an ass of myself by being flat-out-wrong. However, I've noticed this style is occasionally off-putting, which isn't my goal. Apologies.

And yeah, I'm totally fine you with publicly shaming ERIC CHAN to hurry up on posting his article. Subtlety and politeness is for people who aren't going to miss their deadline.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
When I write longer forum posts I tend to skew more like I'm writing an article and less like I'm having a one-on-one conversation - because it's not one-on-one, everyone can read it. For multiple reasons, I can spend a couple hours on posts, heavily editing what I've written. When I invest the time, it really forces me to break down what I'm saying, and helps me gain a deeper understanding of what I'm talking about. It also reduces the times where I'm making an ass of myself by being flat-out-wrong. However, I've noticed this style is occasionally off-putting, which isn't my goal. Apologies.

And yeah, I'm totally fine you with publicly shaming ERIC CHAN to hurry up on posting his article. Subtlety and politeness is for people who aren't going to miss their deadline.

Going to? This thing should have been online weeks ago. The problem is that we have no actual deadlines.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
What.. what is this "Hex" of which you speak? I know of no such thing, gentlemen.

Theatrics aside, I did want to comment to Peter's unique approach to alleviating mana and colour screw, especially because it's heartening to know I'm not the only one here who played WoW TCG (high five!). Aside from making it so that games were never decided by a player not drawing their third land, the face-down resource system had another all-encompassing effect on the game: it made Big Spells better. When you don't have colours to worry about, and when you can guarantee that you'll hit your third land drop on turn three 100% of the time, Cancel goes from something of a laughingstock to tournament staple. Control decks are not only not afraid to play an abundance of fours and fives, but heck, can quite literally go all the way up to 11 with nary a ramp spell in sight.

So in applying this system to Magic, I'd probably keep an eye out on the upper section of your curve, as it no longer becomes unrealistic to expect to hit eight mana on exactly turn eight. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that your cube would benefit from an entire rebalancing due to this type of fundamental change. WoW's expensive spells were all costed with their no-land-screw system in mind, but in Magic, you're not really supposed to shove Kozilek into your deck without some sort of game plan.

Aside from that, though, I like stealing one of WoW TCG's systems and seeing how it would apply to our favourite format. This next suggestion will be a little more out there, but if you're going this far, it can't hurt to ask: have you also considered applying their combat system? I suppose doing that would essentially turn your cube into "WoW with Magic cards", which perhaps isn't the effect you're going for. But, man, wasn't that was some combat system?
 
I really appreciate the input Eric. I never followed tournament WoW, but I can definitely see where caution is needed on the tail end of the spectrum. Living to cast an eldrazi seems like a daunting task to say the least, so I'll be willing to test them out, see what happens.

However, a primary goal is to make colors matter, and that's why I'm going to start out with only basics. If I keep the splashable bombs and splashable premium removal out of my cube, that will help reduce the nonsense of just jamming everything good.

My cube group met tonight (we played someone's new 1-drop cube) and I took time to explain my new proposed land system. They liked the base concepts and what it was trying to do, but also poked a couple holes through the ETB tapped or not logic. The most glaring was that the ideal turn 1 play would likely be "play land for splash color, tapped". We did come up with some alternatives to try out as well.

Finally, I'll admit that I'm not a huge fan of WoW's combat system, so I won't be trying to change what works for Magic. If it ain't broke...
 
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