General Archetype Support

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Honestly, my drafters are just not very good at the game, and don't want to figure out birthing pod. I could list the excuses I've been given, but it would be more comedic than anything. I've drafted several excellent birthing pod decks, and it just dosen't matter to them.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
What do you think about adding a third to that list?
-narrow cards that are insane in a specific deck (build-arounds).

You don't want very many narrow cards as it goes against the idea of synergy, but having a few can help bring decks together and encourage guys to draft an archetype.

Hardened Scales is a pretty extreme example, but I'll use it to illustrate. It's completely useless outside the +1/+1 counter deck, but in that deck it's crazy good (easily the best thing you can have in your opening hand in my experience). Cards like this walk a fine line I think (poisony in nature) but with enough support they start looking first pickable.

Well, in my post I wrote that "most the cards in your cube should be...", and I stand by that. I don't think having a couple cards like Hardened Scales is bad, but the more we include, the more we start to "pre-build" the deck for the drafter. Since nobody else wants them, they're guaranteed to get to the player in that archetype, and since they are so good, they're guaranteed to make the list.

In life gain decks, Zuran Orb was great, but I always felt bad because literally no other player wanted to draft it.
 
Well, in my post I wrote that "most the cards in your cube should be...", and I stand by that. I don't think having a couple cards like Hardened Scales is bad, but the more we include, the more we start to "pre-build" the deck for the drafter. Since nobody else wants them, they're guaranteed to get to the player in that archetype, and since they are so good, they're guaranteed to make the list.

In life gain decks, Zuran Orb was great, but I always felt bad because literally no other player wanted to draft it.

Zuran Orb is absolutely insane in so many decks. It always makes the cut here. Being able to trade lands for life is absurd in any deck and I find it extremely underrated by most cube communities. You really have to play with it a while to realize how busted that exchange is; it allows for alpha strikes that shouldn't work, buys midrange precious time in a bad topdeck war, and even gets used by control on a rare occasion in the more extreme Protect the Queen decks. I seriously cannot talk up this card enough (and the combo it makes with Titania is super sweet, too).
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Zuran Orb is absolutely insane in so many decks. It always makes the cut here. Being able to trade lands for life is absurd in any deck and I find it extremely underrated by most cube communities. You really have to play with it a while to realize how busted that exchange is; it allows for alpha strikes that shouldn't work, buys midrange precious time in a bad topdeck war, and even gets used by control on a rare occasion in the more extreme Protect the Queen decks. I seriously cannot talk up this card enough (and the combo it makes with Titania is super sweet, too).

Yeah, we could never get anyone to bite on it over here. I'm actually not sure I like the combo with Titania. 2 cards, 5 mana, make 35 power and gain 12 life is.. I mean, it's cool, but... not sure how to feel about it.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, we could never get anyone to bite on it over here. I'm actually not sure I like the combo with Titania. 2 cards, 5 mana, make 35 power and gain 12 life is.. I mean, it's cool, but... not sure how to feel about it.

That sounds like a hilarious combo for a powered cube, but I don't know that it is a thing we should strive for in most Riptide cubes.
 
I mean, you are sacking all your lands to do it, and the tokens don't have evasion. It sounds like a pretty fair tradeoff to me for 6 lands. It's no Splinter Twin, that's for sure.
 
What do you think about adding a third to that list?
-narrow cards that are insane in a specific deck (build-arounds).

You don't want very many narrow cards as it goes against the idea of synergy, but having a few can help bring decks together and encourage guys to draft an archetype.

Hardened Scales is a pretty extreme example, but I'll use it to illustrate. It's completely useless outside the +1/+1 counter deck, but in that deck it's crazy good (easily the best thing you can have in your opening hand in my experience). Cards like this walk a fine line I think (poisony in nature) but with enough support they start looking first pickable.

This is exactly the type of situation where I want to try out the Utility Everything Draft proposed in another thread. The ability to give drafters access to a broad range of deep synergies seems very compelling. Hardened Scales would be a perfect example of the type of card I would include in the pool. I run a few of these more narrow cards as it is, but I would be able to move the biggest "offenders" to the UED.
 
This is exactly the type of situation where I want to try out the Utility Everything Draft proposed in another thread. The ability to give drafters access to a broad range of deep synergies seems very compelling. Hardened Scales would be a perfect example of the type of card I would include in the pool. I run a few of these more narrow cards as it is, but I would be able to move the biggest "offenders" to the UED.

That's a great idea actually. I've had to keep the draft as simple as possible since my group really just wants to play the game, so any kind of utility draft is a hard sell over here. I'm approaching it a tad different in that I'm trying to draft my cube in modules. So specifically with Hardened Scales, if that is in the pool of cards, then there is a ton of +1/+1 counter support. In other words, if you want to draft that deck you absolutely won't have a problem unless someone else tries to draft it. And if the deck isn't supported by the card pool, narrow enablers like hardened scales will not be in the card pool.

In a way, it would be similar to how I would imagine storm drafts (though should be less poisony). Their are key cards that are really only good in that archetype and you see if they wheel (indicating the deck might be open). Same here. There are plenty of universally playable +1/+1 cards (most are playable on their own). Draft a few of those early (not hard, they are abundant and go in many decks) and if hardened scales comes back around, go all in on +1/+1 counters. Again, that one card takes the deck to a new level so in theory it should be pretty desireable in much the same way something like Tinker makes you want to make the artifact deck.

That's the idea anyway. I have very little actual draft data though, so it's 95% theory right now.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Is control even an archetype in NWO magic?

Outside of carefully curated standard, the classical distinctions between stabilizer and finisher doesn't seem to exist anymore, and anyone can run wraths. When I look at most modern "control" decks they seem like they are just another value generation deck, but at a different point on the curve.
 

Laz

Developer
I am with Rasmus here, what do you mean by control?

I tend to use the 'Control decks aren't aiming to win the game, they are only aiming to not lose' maxim to define control, which I believe exists under NWO, it is just the stabilizers which keep you from losing double as the finishers that you use to win with. If you are asking about other formats specifically, well control certainly exists in Legacy, though it is probably closer to a Prison strategy, while the absence of control decks in Modern has been much maligned. Part of the problem there is the strategies that seem to have been deemed permissible by WOTC are pretty unfriendly to control decks under the above maxim, as if you have the wrong answer at the wrong time you are not simply punished, you just straight up lose. That said, there are some pretty passable Tier 2 Modern decks that I would classify control, such as any Blue-based Tron deck. Those decks just play not to lose because they have an unbeatable late-game, during which they win really fast.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I forgot about the blue tron decks, that sounds reasonable. I think the u tron decks have fallen to tier 3 though? Miracles is probably the last great control deck left in magic, and one of my favorite parts of legacy.

when I look at the u/w titan decks and grixis control lists in modern (which are the tier 2 options) they are much more about grinding out card advantage. They are maybe a little more 2 for 1 focused than their jund or junk cousins, and there is more of a focus on some higher cc cards, but at the end of the day the decks are more about value generation, just like the midrange decks. The line just seems very thin.

There aren't really a lot of great card draw options in modern now, and lot of the threats provide a duel rule, meaning the decks don't have to actually leverage that inevitablity. Even if there is an issue with moderns answers (and i don't really think there is) why limit yourself to playing for the late game when you can resolve a planeswalker and both pressure and stabalize?

I think that applies to cube too (even more so depending on planeswalkers density imo) which makes me wonder how real the roshambo model even is.
 
What about Reid Duke Esper played in the most recent Pro Tour? No win conditions other than 2 Ugin and awaken cards.
 
My 2 cents is that defining decks in a vacuum as "control" or whatever is a very abstract way of looking at how Magic works that IMO doesn't really do a great job of describing how games actually play. The difficulty in this thread of defining what "control" is sort of illustrates my point I think.

The best description/explanation I've read that ties into this discussion looked specifically at what role your deck played in a particular matchup. Assuming traditional two player game, every game comes down to one player as the aggressor - essentially you can simplify this and look at it as "aggro" vs "control" in every match even if the decks aren't technically aggro or control. Two decks that you would categorize as "midrange" when they play each other will naturally gravitate one way or the other (more aggressive or more control). Sometimes it will be obvious what role you should be playing to have the best chance to win. Sometimes it won't be. But it usually boils down to whether your short game is better or your long game is better when compared to your opponent's deck. Hyper focused decks (aggro decks with 9 1 drops or control decks with 3 creatures) will almost always be forced into one role, but it's difficult to build those decks in draft. So you usually wind up with something "softer" (for lack of a better word).

Assume a green ramp deck with overrun effects versus some kind of middle of the road midrange deck (say with anthems or ETB effects or whatever - it doesn't actually matter for this hypothetical). How would you classify each deck? In a vacuum, they are probably both just plain old midrange. But in this matchup, one of them has the better late game (probably the ramp with overrun since that is almost a combo win in an ideal situation). So to win that game, the second deck most likely has to play as aggressively as possible. It's not an "aggro" deck as we would typically define it, but in this matchup that value midrange deck has to be that role. If that deck plays for the long game, they probably lose here. Against Zoo though, that same midrange deck is going to have to play more control simple because it isn't fast enough to go under the Zoo deck.

In cube too, I think the lines are blurred even more because of the high power level of the card pool and the fact that it's largely singleton (Riptide cubes in particular have more linear power curves as well). I've built decks I thought were more control in nature only to find that they spent most of evening being pseudo tempo decks (where my best results were getting quick board presence and then holding off my opponent's late game). And by the same token, I've seen decks that should be beating down revert to long game strategies by leveraging superior CA engines or other specific matchup advantages. It's all very much a gray area. I think this is one of the best things I've found about cubing is how much more dynamic the game feels to me. I don't remember this same kind of depth when I was playing constructed (although it was always very casual in nature).
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Right, but decks should feel distinct. You don't want to have a cube format where everything feels like value generating good stuff decks at the end of the day.

Its also important for people that want to take some sort of roshambo model into consideration. If NWO design heavily blurs the distinction between control and midrange, than that model breaks downs, even though it might not appear to.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Since legacy and standard are being referenced, and I'm being asked about the complexity level of commons, it seems I am going to have to elaborate a bit.

I've made the NWO defense before, and don't want to come across as unfairly critical of it. Yes, it is true that in carefully curated standard formats their are examples of traditional control decks. It's also true that while NWO design is a term originally introduced by MARO to discuss the complexity level of commons, it also is commonly used to reference the more sweeping changes introduce to the game around the Lorwyn period, and that is the meaning I wish to attribute to it. Otherwise, we can just refer to it as "Modern era design" I suppose, but I don't want to get caught up in that particular semantics argument.

What has me interested right now is modern, and how abnormal it seems to me that some of these decks can be labeled as control decks: Grixis Control and the U/W sun titan decks in particular. This is because I find the good stuff problem in cube interesting, and while I like modern, a number of its top decks are really just good stuff decks (Jund, Junk, all the grixis decks), and the format seems to have provide some insight into why good stuff happen. These decks have different labels, but its hard not to view Grixis Control as just another good stuff deck, focused on an attrition game plan, that wants to pull ahead with value generation. Yes, there are differences, but the line between the two overlaps so much, that it seems to me those differences are swallowed up by the whole.

Now, yes, there are some more traditional control decks--which is a good thing--such as the UWR deck, which though it can change its strategic posture to a more tempoesque deck, still feels more like a traditional hard control deck. Whats the point of reference for a hard control deck? Brian Weissman's original deck: it plays a slow, answer focused game plan, and wins via card advantage. Traditionally, in magic those have been wrath effects or mass discard coupled with raw draw. Ideas of virtual card advantage are also very important to it. The more focused it is on controlling the game, the less and less victory conditions it has, and while it can change its strategic posture to be assertive (even the original deck would sometimes mana drain out a serra angel game 2 to take advantage of sb strategies) thats not its overall strategic plan.

And that type of deck provides a unique experience, and is fun to include in a format.

Now, if I'm a cube designer, and I'm having a hard time with people gravitating towards these good stuff midrange decks, maybe part of the problem is that my control strategies are a little weak, maybe thats because a lot of the tools that midrange and control decks are using are overlapping too much.

For example, whats the best finisher in a B/x control deck? Grave Titan. Whats the best finisher in a B/X midrange deck? Grave Titan. Planeswalkers provide a similar dilemma, as many of them both help stabilize a board while representing pressure in their own right, and given that many cubes provide plentiful tools to overwhelm a hard control deck's removal, it creates a vested interest in drafting these cards. In an individual, carefully curated, standard format (which is not a structure that I think is particularly analogous to cube), perhaps thragtusk on its own is fine, but many of our cubes are slanted towards the modern era, and include a broad spectrum of such cards, which means cards like thragtusk, kitchen finks, the titans, and all of the best planeswalkers potentially get to exist together in a format still offering only one copy of swords to plowshares, and one copy of path to exile (and a bunch of clunky 3cc multi-colored removal ugh). There are a lot of ways to overwhelm a control decks removal, which creates an incentive to be able to close games out faster, and what better way to do that than to run cards that both stabilize and assert pressure? Cards that happen to be popular with midrange players too...

I don't think this is even a particularly radical idea for the forum, so I'm a bit surprised at the push back, which I'm guessing is mostly my fault for hastily writing on the train. Lucre has been making mostly spot on posts about control's health for about a year now. Ahadaban posted in this thread that the distinction between stabilizer and finisher has been largely blurred, and he's right, and the two biggest culprits are two of his most hated cards: planeswalkers and titans.

Everyone has spruced up their aggro decks at this point, and I think its safe to talk a little bit more about making midrange and control feel like more like distinct and special decks. Control in particular I think could use some attention. Instead I'm being asked about draft commons.
 
I love your posts Grillo.

To dovetail off your last comment... someone posted (different thread different forum) that taking care of aggro and control should be the focus of cube design because midrange will work itself out. That always struck me as very true since much of what goes in aggro/control the midrange decks can also run and take advantage of (i.e. midrange is never short on playables).

So as far as giving more attention to control, what are your thoughts on that? I've been very hesitant to do that in my cube because it's so midrange focused. But with a stronger aggro presence (which most Riptide cubes I think have), I can totally see where control could need some TLC.
 
To be clear, I wasn't trying to pick a fight, it's just that NWO has a specific meaning in Magic design and expanding the definition to include other stuff confuses more than it explains - at least for me.

I agree with making the gap between aggro and control bigger and more explicit. I'd start by trimming down the value-based 3, 4, and 5 drops and look to add more control-specific cards. Maybe increase the number of sweepers or other 2-for-1s that are more about slowing your opponent rather than building up your board?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Honestly, I kind of took the easy way out. My cube tops out at RGD power level, and those control decks from that period were amazing. That format was slower (even when firing on full cylinders), and its just easier for me to put normally unplayable (but awesome) counterspells like rewind into a cube. In addition, control decks are normally really mana hungry, and I've got 20 bouncelands to feed that strategy.

You guys have a different challenge, but I think the best place to start with is with what you love about control. What control decks do you really like from the period and power level your cube is drawing inspiration from? If you really loved cruel ultimatum, for example, why not start with that card?
 
So if we want to play around with the thought experiment of "how do we create a deck that plays to win with inevitability in such a fashion that it only runs one or two threats and the rest is all answers" is it possible we should start creating some negative space for that to happen?

I got pretty perplexed when I looked at one of the legacy countertop decks because I couldn't find any way for it to close out the game. The only threats I could see was ultimating jace the mind sculptor and a singleton entreat the angels. Maybe we should look into what cards we can run that gives a control deck absolute inevitability, like nephalia drownyard? If a control deck like countertop is to exist, my guess is that we need to make sure there are actual inevitability win conditions and answers that is going to end up in the hands of the control player in the same way the zurgo bellstrikers end up in the hands of the aggro player.
 
The countertop win is the lock, Jace and Entreat (and, lately, Monastery Mentor) are a formality so you don't go to time every round. Even people who like playing the matchup (future Miracles players all) know that the lock is the scariest part of the deck.

The kinds of soft locks available in Cube are pretty mana intensive (e-wit recurring Cryptic, counter your spell and bounce witness back to my hand; Venser+Karakas; Drownyard+stall) and giving control decks something to do with all the mana they accumulate is great. If Alice's biggest motivation is to always hit her land drops, maybe she - and not the combo guy - wants Elesh Norn. Maybe she wants beefy defenders? Brainstorms? A variety of generic (and not-so-generic) answers go a long way towards supporting niche long-term goals. Modal spells open up some design space too. All that said, I don't think Miracles is where I want my control decks to draw inspiration I'd rather pull them from Blade lists.

Think about it: a small but powerful creature suite, flexible cheap counters, a planeswalker to front-load value, maindeckable wraths, and it isn't so much a list as a shell. I'd rather try to put things like Esper Blade or Modern UWR in my cube than an inefficient counter-top package.
 
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