General Auras: Do they all suck?

Diakonov

Diakonov

Chris Taylor said:
Notice how we also hate most cards with echo, and all equipment beyond a certain cost basically has echo?

Who really has the 6 mana to play and equip sword of vengence and actually has the creatures to go along with it?
Click to expand...

I consider it a top-end aggro card that can provide a small bit of staying power. I do wish it only cost 2 to equip, though.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Diakonov said:
I consider it a top-end aggro card that can provide a small bit of staying power. I do wish it only cost 2 to equip, though.
Click to expand...

Same here, basically. One of the classic mistakes my playgroup makes is putting good but high curve cards in decks that really don't need them: Grave titan, Inferno titan, Elesh Norn etc all in aggro decks that otherwise top out at 4. They also swear by the goblin guide in control strategy, and cite the "But I won when I cast it" as evidence that it was a good decision. I find that the more expensive equipment falls into the same trap.

I'm halfway tempted to make every equipment in my cube cost {0} (and adjust the equip costs accordingly) now, just so my drafters learn this lesson.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Chris Taylor said:
Notice how we also hate most cards with echo, and all equipment beyond a certain cost basically has echo?

Who really has the 6 mana to play and equip sword of vengence and actually has the creatures to go along with it?
Click to expand...
That's why living weapon is such a sweet, sweet mechanic. If only they had printed more fun and balanced equipment besides Bonehoard. Batterskull is silly with its return to hand clause, and the rest is virtually unplayable because way too expensive.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Onderzeeboot said:
That's why living weapon is such a sweet, sweet mechanic. If only they had printed more fun and balanced equipment besides Bonehoard. Batterskull is silly with its return to hand clause, and the rest is virtually unplayable because way too expensive.
Click to expand...

I've tried a few pieces of living weapon before, but they're notoriously hard to grok.
They also have the same problem most artifact creatures do in that they have to make sense in all 5 colors.

Here's the two I had (Rather blatantly stolen from someone on these boards, though I can't remember who. It's written down in the card notes I don't have on me at the moment)

2
2/1 haste
Equip 4

3
3/1 flying
Equip 5

You have to be really careful with the equip cost since it's mostly the only outlet you have for balancing, since the mana cost needs to be kept low so that they're playable as just creatures.
Equip 4 is there on the first one because something like lightning greaves makes a lot of people die when they otherwise might not have, and if lightning greaves turned 1 and 2 drops into sizeable threats, it would be a broken card indeed.
The average aggro deck can probably expect to have 5 lands in play at their end game, and maybe 6 at a pinch. 5 will let you play and swing with a 1 drop (that likely has 4 power now), but the prospect of swining with a (likely 5 power) 2 drop creature is a little less guaranteed. We all know how important the difference between 4 and 5 power is, after all.

The second piece is designed less around playing and equipping to a creature, but rather more around having creatures in play and using this to jump past blockers.
5 is enough that (again, based on the descriptions above about how much land your average aggro deck is likely to have) you probably can't equip this, swing past someone's board, and then deploy more pressure. You either equip this or advance your board, not both.

I'm not 100% on the numbers, since it's been a while since these cards were in my cube (Again, hard to grok and the haste card did feel really out of place in blue/white aggro decks, for eg) so feel free to correct me (I didn't change the costs from whoever I borrowed them from, and again, sorry about forgetting your name. Should magic set editor ever come out for Android this will become much easier)

It's very desirable design space, for sure. But it's hard to come up with playable french vanilla creatures that fit every color. As well, the reminder text on living weapon (as well as bestow) is not insubstantial, which means the creatures need to be simple for font size reasons as well.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Found it! Those living weapons are thanks to Mismir!

Also the 3/1 flying has equip 6. The logic hasn't changed, but the exact number has. I guess you really need to ensure they can't play something and equip in the same turn. An aggro deck might hit six, but they're not hitting 7
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I don't know, I think its pretty great. Not having an equip cost means there is no risk of tempo blowouts due to removal on your creature, and the fact you can activate it at instant speed means it can foil certain types of removal. Meanwhile it dominates the combat step.

A 4 mana investment isn't bad, when placed against comperable equipment (sword of vengeance, loxodon warhammer) which represent a 6 mana investment for somewhat similar board impact.
 
Lucre

Lucre

But sword of vengeance and loxodon warhammer are also incredibly narrow cards in any constructed-like environment.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Hmmm...maybe i'm not understanding what you mean by narrow.

I agree that the higher the power level, the less demand there is for an equipment effect, unless it has some useful triggered ability. Generally the creatures are already pretty solid.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
How about...

Spineworm {2}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +0/+1 and has "{T}: Draw a card, then discard a card."
Equip {2}

Webwalker {3}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +2/+3 and has vigilance and reach.
Equip {5}

Bilespitter {3}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and has "{T}: Equipped creature deals 1 damage to target creature or player."
Equip {3}

Stealthblade {2}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +1/+1, can't be blocked and has " Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to an opponent, you may have it deal that much damage to target creature that player controls.
Equip {6}
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Onderzeeboot said:
Spineworm{2}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +0/+1 and has "{T}: Draw a card, then discard a card."
Equip {2}
Click to expand...
Colorless Merfolk Looter would be fine, but the equip side of this isn't too desirable. It'd be okay, but nothing amazing
Onderzeeboot said:
Webwalker {3}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +2/+3 and has vigilance and reach.
Equip {5}
Click to expand...
Unless the format has a pile of bears (Kahns) or small fliers (Vaporkin?) I don't see this card being too great. The base mode is an okay creature, but really unexciting. The vigilance is solid on the equip half, and it's a decent boost, but you'll admit it's low powered on both fronts
Onderzeeboot said:
Bilespitter {3}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and has "{T}: Equipped creature deals 1 damage to target creature or player."
Equip {3}
Click to expand...
this is a bit more interesting. I'm a bit worried about green randomly having a pinger, but it makes fine sense for the other 4 (White at a stretch).
Again, the sad part is the equip is unexciting, and usually you'll want to attack with your freshly minted 2/2 rather then ping away.
It could be something with build around potential like {T}: Equipped creature deals damage equal to it's power to target creature or player, but that would require some tweaking. That one is akward too in that it wants a tap activation when it's on a germ token, but a mana activation (A la spikeshot elder) once you throw it on something else.
Onderzeeboot said:
Stealthblade {2}
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +1/+1, can't be blocked and has " Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to an opponent, you may have it deal that much damage to target creature that player controls.
Equip {6}
Click to expand...

Speaking of pingers, I was uneasy about green getting prodigal sorcerer, I'm definitely worried about them getting a 2 drop pinger. (fireslinger is the closest analogue)
Also throwing this on a larger creature, slipping past a blocker and killing something is an insane play when you equip it.
 
Lucre

Lucre

I'm talking about what sort of decks would want these things. What sort of constructed style inenetionally crafted decks want 6 mana creature buffs? Maybe rampy elf decks and that sort of midranged deck that plays a lot of bad creatures and not a lot of removal. The sort with a lot of mana it needs to make worthwhile and can't fix it's draws.

What about a 4 mana spell that only makes one creature a little better per round? Well I'd want a lot of creatures and they would have to be getting in fights they won't win a lot because 4 mana for 1 damage per turn isn't a great investment otherwise. It sounds like it's mainly good in a value guys deck or maybe an aggro deck. I'm probably not putting it into a monsters deck like Jund because I'd rather draw a monster or removal and my creatures win fights and shrug off shocks already.

When I say a card is narrow it's about how it's presence in draft complicates finding archetypes or how many decks it fits into and how excited decks are to have it.
 
Lucre

Lucre

My control decks don't want warhammer, my aggro decks usually don't, only some of my midranged and value decks do and they are usually green so I tend to consider warhammer as a card for only particular green decks see? : )
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, all of those cards (equipment, auras, combat tricks) are just not going to be of interest to you in that type of powered environment, unless they basically win you the game (swords/batterskull). I can see them being narrow there.

At lower power things open up a lot in that regard, and those cards become much less narrow. They either give inevitability to an aggro deck, grow an aggro decks creatures larger so they can tangle with midrange monsters, or give stat boosts (trample) that allow a deck to close out the game or break board stalls. Equipment can also make for a nice mana sink when the equip cost isn't obscene.
 
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