General BANG! Cube Injection

[Diakonov]

We all know the tragedy of being stuck at 5 or 7 drafters. Fortunately there is a cure: BANG! Draft.

Disclaimer: this is a multiplayer format. I usually don't enjoy multiplayer, but this format is an exception. I implore you to read on.

Anyone who has ever played BANG! will immediately understand, but for everyone else, the rules are simple. Let's begin with 5 players.

Each player is secretly assigned a role. The easiest way to do this is to gather a Plains (Sheriff), a Forest (Deputy), two Swamps (Outlaws), and a Mountain (Renegade), and randomly deal them out face down. Each player looks at their card to learn their role, but must keep it secret from everyone else.

Next, draft them magic cards.

After drafting is finished, the Sheriff announces himself and reveals his Plains. Commence deckbuilding.

After random seating, the game begins with the Sheriff going first. (He does draw a card for his turn.) Here are the win conditions for each player...

Sheriff: Kill both Outlaws and the Renegade.
Deputy: Protect and assist the Sheriff. (Wins if the Sheriff wins, even after dying.)
Outlaws: Kill the Sheriff. Don't die. (When the Sheriff dies, any LIVING Outlaws win.)
Renegade: Be the last man standing. (Must kill the Sheriff last.)

Additional rules: If anyone kills an Outlaw, even another Outlaw, they collect a reward (draw three cards). If the Sheriff accidentally kills the Deputy, he must discard his hand. You reveal your role only once you are dead.

For 7 players, there are instead two Deputies and three Outlaws.

So, this format is fun with any limited environment, but I expect it to be really great if you build around it a bit. My plan is to design an "injection" of cards that can be thrown into the cube pool if you are playing BANG! draft. Mechanics such as Will of the Council are particularly interesting for this format, since it potentially reveals your intentions.

Other cards that seem perfect for this are Curse of Predation, Vow of Flight, the join forces mechanic, the tempting offer mechanic, the parley mechanic, etc. Additionally, any cards that are generally strong in multiplayer would probably belong here (Siphon Mind).

Where should we begin? Does this seem like a worthwhile project?

 

[anotak]

http://web.archive.org/web/20131013111851/http://magiclampoon.com/blog/throne-magic/

 

[Diakonov]

Was unaware of that format.

 

[Jonas]

That is a hell 0f a lot of rules to throne though.

 

[anotak]

ignore the shit about holdings

the throne part is very useful to help figure out who is who though

 

[ahadabans]

I love BANG! personally and I've thought about doing something like this before. Great to hear it actually works.

I also like the Throne variation. I agree that it might have a bit too much complication, but at the same time it is clearly broken into beginner and advanced options.

I'll pitch both at my next session (whenever that ends up happening). Thanks for sharing.

 

[Eric Chan]

The Bang! format isn't the same thing as Throne. It's a fair bit simpler, but still contains the well-loved hidden roles aspect of social / board games like Werewolf and Mafia. I've played Bang! Magic, and I both enjoyed and would recommend it. It works with six players, as well - one sheriff, one deputy, three outlaws, and one renegade.

We played with an extra rule where the sheriff had ten additional starting life, but I'm not sure if that's standard.

On this mothership article, they appear to call it the Usurpers format:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/sf/238

 

[Diakonov]

We played with an extra rule where the sheriff had ten additional starting life, but I'm not sure if that's standard.

I forgot to mention this, we've played this way once before also. I'm not sure which I prefer. I feel like it might be more important in 7 player, especially.

 

[ahadabans]

I forgot to mention this, we've played this way once before also. I'm not sure which I prefer. I feel like it might be more important in 7 player, especially.

You might also consider adding "range" in the equation. In BANG!, you could only shoot dudes to your immediate right/left unless you had a special gun card out (with a longer range). Not sure how to figure that into the game, but it's a key mechanic to BANG! since at the start it's often impossible for half of outlaws to even attack the sheriff (so the game really can't turn into 3 on 1 right away).

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's a fair bit simpler, but still contains the well-loved hidden roles aspect of social / board games like Werewolf and Mafia.

I hate both of those games with a passion and refuse to play them ever again. There's plenty of better games that use a similar system but where no one has to sit on the sidelines for half an hour after being killed in the first round*. I can highly recommend Wooolf!! and The Resistance instead, if you like this sort of game but want everyone involved for the whole game!

*Now that I think of it, might this be why some players hate edh? I like to watch Magic games, so it doesn't bother me as much, but I can imagine others find it annoying.

 

[ahadabans]

I hate both of those games with a passion and refuse to play them ever again. There's plenty of better games that use a similar system but where no one has to sit on the sidelines for half an hour after being killed in the first round*. I can highly recommend Wooolf!! and The Resistance instead, if you like this sort of game but want everyone involved for the whole game!

*Now that I think of it, might this be why some players hate edh? I like to watch Magic games, so it doesn't bother me as much, but I can imagine others find it annoying.

I mentioned this in another thread, but it's the primary reason why my group likes "attack right/left". In that multi-player variant, you only need to kill the guy to your right or left and the game ends when the first person dies. So it's faster and no one ends up having to sit around. In addition, aggro/tempo decks can actually win this multi-player variant.

 

[Diakonov]

I hate both of those games with a passion and refuse to play them ever again. There's plenty of better games that use a similar system but where no one has to sit on the sidelines for half an hour after being killed in the first round*. I can highly recommend Wooolf!! and The Resistance instead, if you like this sort of game but want everyone involved for the whole game!

*Now that I think of it, might this be why some players hate edh? I like to watch Magic games, so it doesn't bother me as much, but I can imagine others find it annoying.

Once a player dies in BANG! draft, you'd be surprised how quickly the game collapses. This isn't inherently true in EDH games.

Also, The Resistance is awesome. We've been playing the Avalon version a lot lately.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yes, the Resistance and Avalon are better hidden roles / social games than Mafia and Werewolf. Those were good and possibly even revolutionary for their time, but I feel that, like Settlers of Catan, newer, better games have since surpassed them. The fact that you can play several full games of Resistance or Avalon within an hour - even with a large group! - is a huge plus, in my book. (I think our record here is four games in sixty minutes.) Can't recommend these games enough.

Don't add the concept of range to Bang! Magic. Unlike with actual Bang!, there are no "items", so there's no inherent way to increase or decrease your range. There's plenty of political drama with just the hidden roles.

 

[ahadabans]

Don't add the concept of range to Bang! Magic. Unlike with actual Bang!, there are no "items", so there's no inherent way to increase or decrease your range. There's plenty of political drama with just the hidden roles.

You have to do something. Because if all the outlaws can just attack the Sheriff without restriction then the correct strategy most of the time is for all outlaws to double/triple team the sheriff immediately. Which sort of ruins the whole hidden role thing.

I've played a lot of Bang! with my family. That game only works because you can't attack everyone at the table.

 

[Eric Chan]

Bang! Magic is not Bang!.

Try it out.

 

[ahadabans]

Fair enough. How do these games tend to play out for you?

The reason I ask is because it's really not hard to figure out who everyone is. When I first played Bang! with my family, people got cute and tried to trick people. Deputies shooting the sheriff, outlaws attacking outlaws. But none of that helps you win. You just shoot yourself in the foot. So after while, it was about staying secret until which time you felt you could really make a move. And then it was usually a blood bath. But if all the outlaws could shoot the sheriff, it would almost always go down quickly that way.

You don't really have a way in Bang! or Magic to protect people. All you can really do is try and kill the guy killing the guy you don't want dead. And when its 2 or 3 on one, you simply can't kill them fast enough. So range in Bang! is an equalizer of sorts. It gates how fast the outlaws can kill the Sheriff. You then have to find guns and hope you don't lose them because if you do, you are a sitting duck just waiting for the deputies to kill you. The renegade is a nice X factor, but they are often confused for being an outlaw so they generally die if they act too soon.

Maybe it works different in Magic, but I fail to see how.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Can I be a total buzzkill and just say I'd rather play Bang! or Resistance, and not any Magic equivalents.

(I hate every Magic multiplayer format. Carry on.)

 

[Changling Bob]

Maybe it works different in Magic, but I fail to see how.

In bang, shooting people kills them, right?

In magic, you have to force through 20 points of damage.

 

[Diakonov]

Fair enough. How do these games tend to play out for you?

The reason I ask is because it's really not hard to figure out who everyone is. When I first played Bang! with my family, people got cute and tried to trick people. Deputies shooting the sheriff, outlaws attacking outlaws. But none of that helps you win. You just shoot yourself in the foot. So after while, it was about staying secret until which time you felt you could really make a move. And then it was usually a blood bath. But if all the outlaws could shoot the sheriff, it would almost always go down quickly that way.

You don't really have a way in Bang! or Magic to protect people. All you can really do is try and kill the guy killing the guy you don't want dead. And when its 2 or 3 on one, you simply can't kill them fast enough. So range in Bang! is an equalizer of sorts. It gates how fast the outlaws can kill the Sheriff. You then have to find guns and hope you don't lose them because if you do, you are a sitting duck just waiting for the deputies to kill you. The renegade is a nice X factor, but they are often confused for being an outlaw so they generally die if they act too soon.

Maybe it works different in Magic, but I fail to see how.

In my experience, if the Outlaws reveal themselves by attacking the Sheriff, then the Sheriff, Deputy, and Renegade will immediately try to kill an Outlaw. Remember that the Renegade wants the Outlaws to die first as well (at least one of them, so they can't kill the Sheriff too quickly). Perhaps the Outlaws can still have enough gas to take down the Sheriff, but one of them will die in the process. That's why it's important to distinguish that only LIVING Outlaws win the game when the Sheriff dies.

 

[ahadabans]

In my experience, if the Outlaws reveal themselves by attacking the Sheriff, then the Sheriff, Deputy, and Renegade will immediately try to kill an Outlaw. Remember that the Renegade wants the Outlaws to die first as well (at least one of them, so they can't kill the Sheriff too quickly). Perhaps the Outlaws can still have enough gas to take down the Sheriff, but one of them will die in the process. That's why it's important to distinguish that only LIVING Outlaws win the game when the Sheriff dies.

Ah. I missed that. Thank you. That certainly changes things from BANG! And it would make the outlaw rush plan a flip of a coin as to which outlaw wins the game (depending on which doesn't get targeted).

This makes it so the outlaws are less likely to work together though (playing like an easier version of the renegade). But it's probably required if you lose the range mechanic. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Diakonov]

Ah. I missed that. Thank you. That certainly changes things from BANG! And it would make the outlaw rush plan a flip of a coin as to which outlaw wins the game (depending on which doesn't get targeted).

This makes it so the outlaws are less likely to work together though (playing like an easier version of the renegade). But it's probably required if you lose the range mechanic. Thanks for sharing.

I think it actually fits the flavor better, too. The noble Deputy is willing to die in the name of justice. Although the Outlaws share a common interest in killing the Sheriff, they are ultimately self-serving.

 

[ahadabans]

I think it actually fits the flavor better, too. The noble Deputy is willing to die in the name of justice. Although the Outlaws share a common interest in killing the Sheriff, they are ultimately self-serving.

Great point actually. I'll pitch the idea to my group. Sounds like a fun multi-player twist.

One thing I might change though is the names of the roles. A western theme in a fantasy card game feels out of place. So go with a medieval theme? King (Sheriff), Knights (Deputies), Usurpers (Outlaws), Tyrant (Renegade).

Doesn't change anything fundamentally, just stops me from hoping I draw a barrel and a winchester.