Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Aw, is Volition Reins an enchant permanent? Dang it, I'll have to replace it then. Land destruction/mana denial is a big no no in this format.
General Battle Box
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
How many Squadron Hawks could you run in one of these, assuming a player had the entire deck? 2?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
0? I don't think you want to run any tutors in this format?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Wish style squad hawk?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Why wouldn't you run something more interesting though? This is the perfect environment for something like Kor Aeronaut and other CC flyers. Squadron Hawk just feels like something you don't need to bother with at all from a design perspective. Maybe that's just me though...
I don't plan on running it but thought it was an interesting question.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
From a design perspective I think Stark is spot on in recommending top of library manipulation and "neutered" card draw. Tutors are awkward with big decks and go against the random nature of the format (I also follow Menery's design principle of cutting non-"land tutors" from commander decks). Big card draw like Tidings is super powerful because every card you draw is business. Mulldrifter is even better in this format then elsewhere, and Masked Admirers turns into a legit card.
Yup, I threw in my lonely copy of Masked Admirers. Finally, a format where he can be a star! ...maybe.
As maybe the biggest fan of Squadron Hawk on these boards, I don't really have any interest in running him. Tutors and shuffle effects seem kinda miserable if each player has ~150 card libraries (assuming a ~300 card battle box).
As maybe the biggest fan of Squadron Hawk on these boards, I don't really have any interest in running him. Tutors and shuffle effects seem kinda miserable if each player has ~150 card libraries (assuming a ~300 card battle box).
Its a huge shame this is something you have to opt into, instead of being a core and guiding principle of EDH.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I totally agree. Since I drastically cut back on tutors my games have been a lot more fun. I have more room for riotous niche cards, and I can do something tangible each turn rather than fetch the same best spells over and over again each game. The only nonland tutors I run these days are run for flavor reasons, like Demonic Tutor and Blood Speaker in my Malfegor demons & dragons deck, and Sterling Grove in my Treva, the Renewer enchantment deck.
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/13823
i threw together a butthole box from random cards
me and a friend played a game. same complaints as before, however cluestones helped the feel a decent amount
i found a pair of gold border rishadan ports, and i couldnt find 2 selesnya and dimir guild gates so i figured oh what the hell
my land pile, 2x
i threw together a butthole box from random cards
me and a friend played a game. same complaints as before, however cluestones helped the feel a decent amount
i found a pair of gold border rishadan ports, and i couldnt find 2 selesnya and dimir guild gates so i figured oh what the hell
my land pile, 2x
How much damage would karoos do if you used them instead of guildgates?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Well, they give you 5 more mana, so eventually you will reach 15, but it is much harder to get CCC in play and you are less flexible in the early to mid-turns.
t1. Plains (W)
t2. Azorius Chancery, bounce Plains (W)
t3. Plains (WWU)
t4. Selesnya Sanctuary, bounce Plains (WWU)
t5. Plains (GWWWU)
vs
t1. Azorius Guildgate (-)
t2. Selesnya Guildgate (W or U)
t3. Plains (GWU or GWW or WWU or WWW)
I think I honestly would prefer guildgates, or else your early turns will be sluggish as heck.
Hello Riptide labs! First i'd like to say I really appreciate what you guys have contributed to the cube community and I look forward to what will be done with Battle Box!
I think the most significant design element of Battle Box is that it is a pick-up-and-play format that has no mana screw. The grindy, skill testing, eeking out minor advantage gameplay that Ben Stark and some of his friends enjoy shouldn't define the format. I enjoy that playstyle but I think Battle Box has much more to offer.
For instance I think a *multiplayer Battle Box would want to be more swingy. When a 1v1 game can take upwards of an hour to complete I suspect eeking out incremental advantage against 3 other players might take upwards of infinity. I have played *multiplayer Battle Box using variant of Jason's Primary cube and found it to be quite enjoyable.
On a different note, I look forward to Tribal Cubes (maybe they run 15-20 Commune with Nature?) and Themed cubes (perhaps only containing cards from one Plane). Perhaps even a Warfare cube, where lands are taken from a shared stack and can be stolen.
As it stands I think the card type that gets the least face time in Battle Box is Land. I'm pondering how to change that in a way that doesn't detract from the current design.
More to share as more develops!
*(When I play multiplayer I tend to use variants of the Star format i.e. each player wins by eliminating specific others players rather than all of them. I don't like FFA and team games lack a political element.)
I think the most significant design element of Battle Box is that it is a pick-up-and-play format that has no mana screw. The grindy, skill testing, eeking out minor advantage gameplay that Ben Stark and some of his friends enjoy shouldn't define the format. I enjoy that playstyle but I think Battle Box has much more to offer.
For instance I think a *multiplayer Battle Box would want to be more swingy. When a 1v1 game can take upwards of an hour to complete I suspect eeking out incremental advantage against 3 other players might take upwards of infinity. I have played *multiplayer Battle Box using variant of Jason's Primary cube and found it to be quite enjoyable.
On a different note, I look forward to Tribal Cubes (maybe they run 15-20 Commune with Nature?) and Themed cubes (perhaps only containing cards from one Plane). Perhaps even a Warfare cube, where lands are taken from a shared stack and can be stolen.
As it stands I think the card type that gets the least face time in Battle Box is Land. I'm pondering how to change that in a way that doesn't detract from the current design.
More to share as more develops!
*(When I play multiplayer I tend to use variants of the Star format i.e. each player wins by eliminating specific others players rather than all of them. I don't like FFA and team games lack a political element.)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Good to have you!
One thing I did notice about this is while it's possibly the worst way to introduce a player to magic itself, this can be a sweet in for the designer types among us. Channel Fireball is talking about selling copies of Starks List for 200$ ish, since it's mostly commons and uncommons. Remember how a while back people were talking about a sort of pre-made starter cube that WotC could sell? Maybe this is the beginnings of that idea
One thing I did notice about this is while it's possibly the worst way to introduce a player to magic itself, this can be a sweet in for the designer types among us. Channel Fireball is talking about selling copies of Starks List for 200$ ish, since it's mostly commons and uncommons. Remember how a while back people were talking about a sort of pre-made starter cube that WotC could sell? Maybe this is the beginnings of that idea
There is still this idea available for the making. I would work on it more but we never have enough testers around.
Yes, Channelfireball recently sold out of their first wave of Stark's Battle Box, they had a $109 dollar version (that is missing 8 expensive cards) and a ~$200 version with everything. Many singles that are in the Battle Box are also out of stock 
.
The challenge of selling a starter Cube might be preconceived notions about what a Cube should be i.e. super powerful cards. Since Battle Box was new to the magic community CFB got to define it and fortunately for them Ben Stark put together a relatively cheap Box. It would definitely be interesting design space to explore; a low monetary cost draft format that feels more like what people expect from Cube than from opening boosters. (It might also be frustrating for the cost of cards to impinge on your ideal design though).
How do you guys think it would affect Battle Box if instead of getting to play a land for free every turn, you had to decide between drawing a land (that you choose from the pile) or a card during your draw step?
.The challenge of selling a starter Cube might be preconceived notions about what a Cube should be i.e. super powerful cards. Since Battle Box was new to the magic community CFB got to define it and fortunately for them Ben Stark put together a relatively cheap Box. It would definitely be interesting design space to explore; a low monetary cost draft format that feels more like what people expect from Cube than from opening boosters. (It might also be frustrating for the cost of cards to impinge on your ideal design though).
How do you guys think it would affect Battle Box if instead of getting to play a land for free every turn, you had to decide between drawing a land (that you choose from the pile) or a card during your draw step?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Started from scratch. Now I have to find an unwitting victim
http://cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/13646
http://cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/13646
Hey there, is anyone still interested in this format? I've been putting together my battle box and very much enjoying it, so I was looking for a place to discuss single cards and "design" choices, especially since I've found my experience with it to be somewhat different from what I was expecting after reading the articles from Brian DeMars and Ben Stark. I'm still very much experimenting and the box is not very large (150-ish cards) but I look forward to expand and refine it. Cheers!
I'm interested in playing and commentating on lists but don't really have the desire to make one myself.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Started from scratch. Now I have to find an unwitting victim
http://cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/13646
Feel free to comment on my list or ask for feedback on yours. I'm also interested in hearing about your experiences, since they differ from the main sources on this format.
http://cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/16220
Ok so, this is my list. I've found that games do not necessarily end up being slow grinds if you can have efficient creatures in the 1-3 casting cost slots and keep in check the quality of both removal and fatties. The flow of the games is similar to that of an average speed draft format but without the threats of huge bombs stealing games out of nowhere. Card advantage is rarely relevant since players tend to always have a bunch of cards in hand, so even the mass removal spells which are arguably the most powerful cards in the pile don't usually end up being too swingy. There are a bunch of cards that probably don't pull their weight, but I don't think there are terribly overpowered ones which is more important to me. Thoughts?
Ok so, this is my list. I've found that games do not necessarily end up being slow grinds if you can have efficient creatures in the 1-3 casting cost slots and keep in check the quality of both removal and fatties. The flow of the games is similar to that of an average speed draft format but without the threats of huge bombs stealing games out of nowhere. Card advantage is rarely relevant since players tend to always have a bunch of cards in hand, so even the mass removal spells which are arguably the most powerful cards in the pile don't usually end up being too swingy. There are a bunch of cards that probably don't pull their weight, but I don't think there are terribly overpowered ones which is more important to me. Thoughts?