Chris Taylor
Contributor
RE: FoF, does something count as a good design if the gameplay is horrible?
General Best designed Magic card of all time
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It has flying, which breaks the color pie big time. I love the card, it certainly is in my cube, but I certainly don't think it's the best design out there.
what
Let's face it peeps, Fact or Fiction is super spikey and often not very fun to be on the other side of if you're not super familiar with the format / deck you're up against. "Ughhhh... analysis paralysis... so this is how I'm going to lose this game."
Okay, I knew Gifts was a card for a long time but didn't really "get" it. Choosing fewer than four cards has to be one of the jankiest, gameiest competitive applications of a card I've seen. The cards they choose go to the graveyard? That design is so inelegant in my opinion.
I'm with you on this. Toolboxes are both awesome and fun for deckbuilding. Birthing Pod makes thing a little too easy in constructed and a little too hard in limited for my liking, but stuff like Green Sun's Zenith, Trinket Mage, Knight of the Reliquary, Ranger of Eos, and Stoneforge Mystic--that last one maybe not in Standard--are all fantastic.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think FOF, gifts, and cabal therapy are all great examples of some of the best skill testing cards ever made, but I think they natively operate at too high of a level to be best design ever.
Vend. clique and eternal witness are powerful intuitive designs that grow with the player (and to a lesser extent blade splicer). Terramorphic expanse fills an important gap in limited, is easy to understand, and enables the player to better explore the format.
I like the idea of the card having broad base appeal, but growing in depth the more the player uses it.
Edit: I think sylvan library is an example of bad design. The text is just very poorly worded and creates needless confusion. Brainstorm, I think was a flawed design that turned out to be too good.
Vend. clique and eternal witness are powerful intuitive designs that grow with the player (and to a lesser extent blade splicer). Terramorphic expanse fills an important gap in limited, is easy to understand, and enables the player to better explore the format.
I like the idea of the card having broad base appeal, but growing in depth the more the player uses it.
Edit: I think sylvan library is an example of bad design. The text is just very poorly worded and creates needless confusion. Brainstorm, I think was a flawed design that turned out to be too good.
Man some weird posts here. I really don't understand the hate for FOF. I guess it adds a level of gameyness and complexity to play that are skills the average magic player may not have developed very well in the course of his normal matches.
I rather like green sun myself but I understand why you wouldn't want it to be determining the pace of so many games because I'm damn sure things get repetitive. It does have one of the things I like the most in that it is a card in hand that can be used to a diverse number of effects and comes with all sorts of sweet side effects. And who doesn't love card selection in green?
I tend to feel like the uncommon slot is where you see some of the most elegant designs that get to exist somewhere between splashy, complex and staple effects.
I'm going to try not to go by favourites here, and I might change by vote but right now I really think it's this guy:
I know I've played it in aggro decks, control decks, combo decks and midranged decks, you probably have too. It's enabled strategies and it's encouraged me to expand the decks I was making and get trickier without ever really pushing too hard. It makes me want to play more with under utilized effects like raise deads, and grave triggers (some of this was before the black cube revolution).
What I like most about it, is that it isn't nuts. It's good, all the split card versions of this are pretty solid for what they do, but none of them really feel overpowered unless you're willing to invest in gimmicky synergies and the best part is with shriekmaw in your deck, the other gimmicks feel a lot more solid. 1B sorcery speed terror is actually really where I want to be for removal. I love that the cost is slight enough to facilitate playing some kind of trick the same turn, I love the timing of evoke, I love that it's counterable, and I love that a black or artifact blocker just ruins shriekmaw's day!
Whoever made this card really found the prefect groove.
My honorable mentions include Firebolt, Harrow, Duress, combat damage on the stack Sakura-tribe Elder, Rancor, Basking Rootwalla, Venser, Shaper Savant, Compulsive Research, Treetop Village and Wrath of God. I think there's gotta be more than that, like stuff like necromancy, but man is shriekmaw like the whole package.
I rather like green sun myself but I understand why you wouldn't want it to be determining the pace of so many games because I'm damn sure things get repetitive. It does have one of the things I like the most in that it is a card in hand that can be used to a diverse number of effects and comes with all sorts of sweet side effects. And who doesn't love card selection in green?
I tend to feel like the uncommon slot is where you see some of the most elegant designs that get to exist somewhere between splashy, complex and staple effects.
I'm going to try not to go by favourites here, and I might change by vote but right now I really think it's this guy:
I know I've played it in aggro decks, control decks, combo decks and midranged decks, you probably have too. It's enabled strategies and it's encouraged me to expand the decks I was making and get trickier without ever really pushing too hard. It makes me want to play more with under utilized effects like raise deads, and grave triggers (some of this was before the black cube revolution).
What I like most about it, is that it isn't nuts. It's good, all the split card versions of this are pretty solid for what they do, but none of them really feel overpowered unless you're willing to invest in gimmicky synergies and the best part is with shriekmaw in your deck, the other gimmicks feel a lot more solid. 1B sorcery speed terror is actually really where I want to be for removal. I love that the cost is slight enough to facilitate playing some kind of trick the same turn, I love the timing of evoke, I love that it's counterable, and I love that a black or artifact blocker just ruins shriekmaw's day!
Whoever made this card really found the prefect groove.
My honorable mentions include Firebolt, Harrow, Duress, combat damage on the stack Sakura-tribe Elder, Rancor, Basking Rootwalla, Venser, Shaper Savant, Compulsive Research, Treetop Village and Wrath of God. I think there's gotta be more than that, like stuff like necromancy, but man is shriekmaw like the whole package.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
A powerful effect that has counterplay, guides a strategy, requires real deckbuilding choices to properly utilize, and invokes a specific thematic? Perfection.
But really, I'm awfully fond of the design on Izzet Charm:
The first two modes are generally valuable against two different decks. The counter non-creature part has interesting interaction with X spells, where the threat of an Izzet Charm can lead to a Sphinx's Revelation player having to play around it. The third mode has some value to dig for specific combo pieces or one-outers, and means that the card is still live even if the first two modes are dead later in the game. It's a pretty weak topdeck, but not completely dead. All the modes are over-costed, so you pay a tax on the card's versatility, which is good design.
The card can lead to a lot of decision points and tension, which to me, is the best hallmark of a well-designed card.
which is what i was saying with my post about it originally, that's the reason i chose lightning bolt. inevitably every other card i've seen picked here only has a narrow appreciation among a small subset of players but lightning bolt is so entirely universal. i was listing those as cards i might choose if i was choosing my favorite cards, but i don't think they're good choices for "best designed card". i can't think of a better choice than bolt.
it hits a flavor homerun
it is obvious what it does
it feels powerful, has good flow.
it appeals to spikes by being efficient and having tons of utility
it appeals to timmies by feeling strong on an emotional level
it appeals to johnnies by showing them the idea of "hey, you can kill them without creatures"
easy to learn / hard to master. "simple" yet deceptively complex to use. it doesn't FEEL like there's too many decisions to be made with it, which avoids new players becoming overwhelmed, yet there are very many.
it is elegant
it is even part of a cycle which is always a feel good thing, despite how messed up the balance of the cycle overall was
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Edit: I made a whole long rant here about how Fof doesn't fit any of anotak's points, but he's actually talking about bolt. I feel silly
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I can see bolt, but given the reasoning above:
VS. Is bolt really a better design than giant growth?
Before making this thread my answer was Vendilion Clique, which is definitely not my favorite card. Anybody want to debate against V. Clique?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Shriekmaw is fine, but I don't really consider a rather bland modal card to be in contention for "best design of all time".
FYI FOR EVERYONE: lightning bolt is my favorite magic card.
I do think it is too powerful for consideration, though.
Thus, I submit to you all:
I do think it is too powerful for consideration, though.
Thus, I submit to you all:
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
If I was going with favorite card it would be delver.
I went with clique because everyone enjoys playing it. It has all of the "gotcha" appeal of the ninjitsu cards, but is actually good. It has tons of decision point intersections, but the card never feels intimidating to play, grows with the player, and consistently rewards creative, skillful gameplay. It reveals game information that adds tremendous depth to the game as a whole, and is interactive at every level, as a flash body, and as a spell. It also manages to feel powerful due to its CC, body, and abilities, but never to the point where it feels unfair.
Flavorfully its exactly what I would expect a gang of faeries to be: a group of disruptive pranksters that ruin your plans at the worst moment. The one toughness shows their frailty, the 3 power shows they are operating in a group, and they of course fly. Even the name "vendilion clique" shows off the unique culture and quirky mindset of lorwyn's faeries: they are more focused on working together to achieve whimsical and colorful fun at someone else's expense, rather than outright hurting anyone. This is expressed mechanically by the card they take going on the bottom of the library rather than into the graveyard, and the fact they can target either player.
Any card is capable of producing feel bad moments, and bolt, bolt, game over is much more of a feel bad than anything clique can do.
I went with clique because everyone enjoys playing it. It has all of the "gotcha" appeal of the ninjitsu cards, but is actually good. It has tons of decision point intersections, but the card never feels intimidating to play, grows with the player, and consistently rewards creative, skillful gameplay. It reveals game information that adds tremendous depth to the game as a whole, and is interactive at every level, as a flash body, and as a spell. It also manages to feel powerful due to its CC, body, and abilities, but never to the point where it feels unfair.
Flavorfully its exactly what I would expect a gang of faeries to be: a group of disruptive pranksters that ruin your plans at the worst moment. The one toughness shows their frailty, the 3 power shows they are operating in a group, and they of course fly. Even the name "vendilion clique" shows off the unique culture and quirky mindset of lorwyn's faeries: they are more focused on working together to achieve whimsical and colorful fun at someone else's expense, rather than outright hurting anyone. This is expressed mechanically by the card they take going on the bottom of the library rather than into the graveyard, and the fact they can target either player.
Any card is capable of producing feel bad moments, and bolt, bolt, game over is much more of a feel bad than anything clique can do.
I (apparently alone) dislike clique.
It's got too much going for it- high power, powerful effect, powerful abilities (unblockab- I mean flying and flash), low CMC... while it is frail and legendary it doesn't feel right to have blue effectively thoughtseizing you at instant speed- it hurts much more in cube to kiss that one sweet card goodbye, because you know you aren't (or aren't likely) getting it back. It doesn't take any setup (snapcaster mage), have any build-aroundness (young pyromancer), have any synergy beyond tribal (and then you're just forcing it), and isn't especially restrictive. The closest thing to "counter play" is having a hand full of lands/cards that aren't worth them letting you draw to get rid of, and that's hardly "play."
I'm not saying it's unbeatable or overpowered, it just feels gross and wrong to me from both sides.
I have never played with or against a Doran. I honestly just think it's good design.
It's got too much going for it- high power, powerful effect, powerful abilities (unblockab- I mean flying and flash), low CMC... while it is frail and legendary it doesn't feel right to have blue effectively thoughtseizing you at instant speed- it hurts much more in cube to kiss that one sweet card goodbye, because you know you aren't (or aren't likely) getting it back. It doesn't take any setup (snapcaster mage), have any build-aroundness (young pyromancer), have any synergy beyond tribal (and then you're just forcing it), and isn't especially restrictive. The closest thing to "counter play" is having a hand full of lands/cards that aren't worth them letting you draw to get rid of, and that's hardly "play."
I'm not saying it's unbeatable or overpowered, it just feels gross and wrong to me from both sides.
I have never played with or against a Doran. I honestly just think it's good design.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Yeah, not sure where that is coming from. I honestly think Goblin Grenade is the best card design in magic history. The fact that I like the card is hardly relevant, other then that it makes sense that a well designed card is likable.
Anyway, my favorite card is Kird Ape.