General CBS

Unless you're playing a really bad starter deck, Magic games are not on auto-pilot.
Dude, I'm playing on Arena right now and if ramping into Nissa for Mass Manipulation isn't playing on autopilot, what is?

We are talking about a game where the best player in the world can't rise above a 65% win rate against the field. Magic isn't exactly the height of decision-making and Hearstone, being a Magic variant, is not far off.
 
Dude, I'm playing on Arena right now and if ramping into Nissa for Mass Manipulation isn't playing on autopilot, what is?

We are talking about a game where the best player in the world can't rise above a 65% win rate against the field. Magic isn't exactly the height of decision-making and Hearstone, being a Magic variant, is not far off.

Good, good. And your experience with Hearthstone throughout the years?
 
Good, good. And your experience with Hearthstone throughout the years?
Like I said:

Hearstone, being a Magic variant, is not far off

Really, your criticisms of Hearthstone are pretty much the same criticisms one could make (and, in fact, I do make) about Magic. Playing on autopilot, dumping a lot of money to make your deck better, your decisions not mattering, etc. There's not much else to it.
 
Nobody who have played Hearthstone and overcome that new ‘oooh shiny’ beginner’s fase would write that.

If you still feel this way, then I am going to have to call in a Let’s Agree to Disagree :)
 
To change topics, I wonder how the old players I'm taking my cube with will react to to Blink and cards like Kor Skyfisher in general. It took me a while to realize how good Skyfisher was and how much more common EBT effects have gotten. At first I thought you wouldn't play these cards without heavy support, but here we are.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
This has been linked before, but I'll just leave this here: https://screenrant.com/magic-the-gathering-worlds-most-complex-game/

Really, your criticisms of Hearthstone are pretty much the same criticisms one could make (and, in fact, I do make) about Magic. Playing on autopilot, dumping a lot of money to make your deck better, your decisions not mattering, etc. There's not much else to it.
I don't think the "playing no autopilot" is fair to either game, though Magic definitely has more interaction by virtue of the Instant card type, the flash ability, and activated abilities that can be activated at instant speed. Either games offers plenty of situations where choosing what card to play is not a 100% obvious, but does affect the outcome of the game. Sure there are phases in every game where the obvious line is obvious (like turn one Forest into Llanowar Elves), but there will be plenty of turns each game where you do have a decision. Do I keep a land in hand to represent interaction, or do I play it hoping to topdeck that expensive card, but giving away the fact that I can't stop my opponent right now? Do I play that extra creature to represent lethal, knowing my opponent might have a wrath effect, or do I thread slowly but safely, keeping it in hand in case they have it? What creatures do I attack with, how much do I need to leave back on defense? Should I switch to being the attacker or should I keep playing the defense role? Et cetera, et cetera. There's the deck building aspect, keeping an expected meta in mind. Heck, achieving results with budgetary constraints can be a goal in and of itself, and SaffronOlive regularly features budget decks that can do well in Standard. I mean, if you want to feel disillusioned, I'm not going to say you can't, but Magic and Hearthstone both have a lot to offer, just, Magic more than Hearthstone for me.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Certainly if it's about which is worse while both have their upsides and downsides

Someone once asked me who I thought the best character from Avatar: the Last Airbender was.
Who cares, there's so many good ones :p
 
I'd be interested to see what other games those guys tested before determining MtG is the most complex. Seems like any game with sufficient game length (no obviously computable turn 1-2 kills), random topdecks (along with a non-cooperative mana system), and a rather large card pool would meet the criteria. But the article was extremely brief, so I don't know.

I feel like, as a human, the situations I get into in any card game on turn 7 where each player has 2+ cards in hand, the board has some stuff happening, no one's life is in burn range, etc, wouldn't be computable from one side of the table. But I'm just a dumbass human.

Then there's metagame decisions outside that. Not sure if that was considered.

Like, in HS (not a "real world game" for the article, but whatever) I frequently failed to compute that I would lose 6 Knife Juggles in a row. Does that make it complex? Or just a shitty, feel-bad experience?
 
Dude, I'm playing on Arena right now and if ramping into Nissa for Mass Manipulation isn't playing on autopilot, what is?

We are talking about a game where the best player in the world can't rise above a 65% win rate against the field. Magic isn't exactly the height of decision-making and Hearstone, being a Magic variant, is not far off.

There is so much wrong with these three sentences it makes my head hurt.

First, just because you're playing a linear deck doesn't mean that the whole game is linear. There are tons of Magic decks where decision making is front and center. My favorite example of this is Death and Taxes in Legacy. That deck has so many choices to make that it's virtually impossible to have a game where there isn't some sort of ambiguous decision. I've seen people lose games before because they chose to put a counter on Aether Vial instead of keeping it where it was. Decks like Grixis Control, Sultai Delver, Whir Prison, Bear Loam, and UrzaSword (to name a few) have lots of choices that the pilot needs to make to win the game. Even burn, which is probably the most on-rails deck in the game still has important decisions that need to be made. Do you attack with your Monastery Swiftspear or hold back so you can cast a spell so it can survive next turn? Do you bolt the blocker or the face? Do you draw this turn with Sunbaked Canyon or use the mana to suspend a Rift Bolt Basically, just because linear decks exist doesn't mean the game is in of itself on auto-pilot.

Second, win rates have little to do with the "pilot skill" of the game. Magic is a game with a lot of variance. People don't have perfectly balanced decks to begin with, randomly only get to play with a portion of their decks, and don't even start with the same number of cards every game (the player going second gets 8 cards to start with in absence of a mulligan because they don't skip their first turn's draw step, the starting player only gets 7). Sometimes the luck of the draw can just cause a player to lose the game. Drawing 7 lands in a row and losing because of it is not the same thing as losing because you're actually worse than your opponent. This isn't a physical sport like swimming where the person who is naturally best at the game and trains the most wins every match.

I also take issue with calling Hearthstone "a Magic variant." Yes, Hearthstone borrows many elements from Magic, but they fundamentally aren't the same. It's like Chess and Checkers. Both have boards, both have pieces, but they're different gameplay experiences. To call one a variant of the other simply misses what makes each special.
 
Thanks for the comment Onderzeeboot.

This has been linked before, but I'll just leave this here: https://screenrant.com/magic-the-gathering-worlds-most-complex-game/
https://screenrant.com/magic-the-gathering-worlds-most-complex-game/
Sadly, the study has been misrepresented by both the researchers and the media. They haven't found Magic to be the more "complex game", they simply have found a combination of cards and moves that doesn't lead to a computable outcome. So they haven't found the game to be complex in the sense of strategy or game design, just of computer science. Notably, Minesweeper, Minecraft and Conway's game of life are all "the most complex games" by the same metric.

--

Regarding your comments on autopilot,the problem is that, most of the time all those small decisions don't matter or are obvious. Keeping a land you don't need in hand to pretend you have a counterspell will rarely have an impact. You aren't going to defend very often with the typical Red Aggro deck and if you get to that point, chances are you've lost anyways.

These small decisions do add up. If you play 50 games and you are a better player, you'll come up ahead. But in the nittry gritty of it, luck, matchups and what cards you've drawn matter more.

It's true that I am disillusioned. Part of it is playing other card games, where individual matches are much more competitive. But most of it is simply that I wish Magic were better in this regard because there are a lot of cool things about it. One of the reasons I'm interested in cube is that it offers me the possibility of getting more out of the game while minimizing its flaws.


Second, win rates have little to do with the "pilot skill" of the game. Magic is a game with a lot of variance.
That's exactly my issue. That your decisions in-game matter surprisingly little in comparison to luck, matchups and whatever you drew in your opening hand. Limited and a proper environment help, but often feel there's little difference between playing well and playing very well.

I also take issue with calling Hearthstone "a Magic variant." Yes, Hearthstone borrows many elements from Magic, but they fundamentally aren't the same.
They are not the same, but I don't think it's a stretch to call it a variant. The core of the game is the same, with some differences and tweaks. Personally, I would consider Hearthstone, as well as Keyforge and Pokémon to be Magic variants.

It's not a bad thing, either. I think Magic is a much better game, but Hearthstone is very well made, like is usual of Blizzard.
 
Hearthstone
Pros: it is a digital card game, hence: it is feasible to push cards that generate other cards that you don't have in your deck (really easy to implement the random component) or create new cards on the spot (in my opinion, one of the funniest experiences the game has to offer).
It is easy to setup a game: load the launcher, press 'Search Game' and you can play anywhere with anyone.
It is really polished both in graphics and audio sounds (each minion has a unique ETB and attack sound).
The hero power mechanic is something I really dig: you basically have a unique card that costs 2 mana that can be activated once each turn.
Cons: it is becoming more of a cashgrab than anything else.
I've played on and off since beta and there have been some really fun and diverse metas, but in the last couple years there has been some really oppressive cards.
The cards are split in 9 big clusters (the classes).
There is a very slack class identity that limits ("Restrictions breed creativity", anyone?) what classes can do, so there is an inner polarization.

I'm not going to comment on MTGA because I've played it only for a couple of months.

I think it's not beneficial to address pros and cons of MTG, since it's a hot topic and everyone have a personal take.
I want only to discuss one point: (to me) Magic isn't only a card game. Yes, you can play a plethora of constructed and limited formats that share how the game is played, but you can also build 5 cards packs stacked with land-human creature-instant/sorcery-creature-instant/sorcery and do some storytelling (setting-protagonist-protagonist's boon-antagonist-antagonist's boon), or you can build a cube and never play with anyone because let's be real, who ever has finished and playtested a cube? (insert wink wink or sad face emoji at your discretion).
 
They are not the same, but I don't think it's a stretch to call it a variant. The core of the game is the same, with some differences and tweaks. Personally, I would consider Hearthstone, as well as Keyforge and Pokémon to be Magic variants.

It really depends on your definition of variant. My gut reaction is that Pokemon is definitely a stretch.... The mana system is the root of Magic and Hearthstone, whereas there is no casting cost on any Pokemon card. On turn one, some Pokemon decks can sling dozens of cards and eat through their whole deck, without ever using anything that resembles mana. There are Energy cards, which are necessary to 'power up' Pokemon, which have different colors and can be played once per turn. This, you would argue, is Pokemon's mana equivalent. But there are decks that play ZERO Energy cards, and succeed. A whole host of others only play four Energies. The fact that competitive decks exist that do not run any 'mana' is clearly distinguishing of Pokemon as a game, in my opinion (of course, things like One-Land-Spy exist in Magic, but that deck runs plenty of mana sources, just not many lands). The 'color' aspect of Pokemon matters very little in terms of what kind of cards different colors get access to, and decks almost always play several different types of Pokemon, with no intent of using some of the off-color ones to attack. The whole boardstate, with a Bench and a specific Attacking Pokemon, is alien in comparison to Magic. The objective is to kill your opponents creatures, not them. You have 6 Prize Cards that you need to take to win. A whole different set of skills is necessary to play each game well.

I would propose this litmus test for whether a game is a variant of another: if experience with one game translates notably to another, then they are related as variants. But if trying to learn and improve as a player of each of the two games is highly unrelated, they are not. In my personal experience, being very familiar with Pokemon was not at all useful for learning and succeeding at Magic.
 
It does depend on what one considers a fundamental change. For me Pokémon is pretty much in line with Magic as a design. Sure, lands now go on creatures and the goal has changed to better fit its theme, but the play is very similar. It's simpler, because it was made for kids, but it seems very in line with the original design.

Regarding some decks not playing energy, small changes to Magic's balance could also result in more creatures that didn't cost mana to play. After all, there are already some that don't, like Ornithopter. One can imagine a Magic-like game where you had more creatures that didn't cost mana to play, because the balance was different or because the cost was more focused on cards.

I don't know much about the state Pokémon nowadays but energy-less decks seem less of a design choice and more of another example of the game's balance being completely out of whack.

Keyforge is perhaps the better example. You could say it's nothing like Magic. There's no deckbuilding, all cards are free to play and the draw system is close to Vampire: The Eternal Struggle than it is to MTG. But , to me, it's pretty much "Magic as Garfield intended but made in 2019".

I would propose this litmus test for whether a game is a variant of another: if experience with one game translates notably to another, then they are related as variants.
I see what you mean, but experience travels pretty far. For example, playing Magic gave me a much stronger grasp on Netrunner than any other game ever has, but Netrunner is pretty much the polar opposite of Magic as far as card games go.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Keyforge is perhaps the better example. You could say it's nothing like Magic. There's no deckbuilding, all cards are free to play and the draw system is close to Vampire: The Eternal Struggle than it is to MTG. But, to me, it's pretty much "Magic as Garfield intended but made in 2019".
I've played a bit of Keyforge, and to be honest, it didn't thrill me, at all. If it's Magic as Garfield intended, he sure removed all the things I like about actual Magic from it.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I've played all of the above, so I'll weigh in with my opinions.

Hearthstone

I think it's absolutely fair to call Hearthstone a Magic variant. Fundamentally they've changed 3 things in the core design:

* mana is gained automatically (eliminating mana flood / screw)
* attackers dictate combat (choosing to hit face or be 'blocked' by a given defender)
* you can't act on your opponent's turn

That said, I think your Magic skills transfer very readily. It's creatures with power + toughness, ETB abilities, spells as you know them. For me the big turnoff of Hearthstone is that despite having many fun things to play 'with', there were far too many that were unfun to play against. One too many games against infiniteVoidlord.dek and I haven't touched the game since.

To be honest I think that Hearthstone and Magic predominantly have similar degrees of autopiloting. Still, many decks in Hearthstone had significant depth, and I would see pro players pilot their way out of Renomage situations where I would have lost.

Pokemon

I pretty strongly disagree with the statement that Pokemon is 'pretty much in line with Magic as a design'. The Ornithopter analogy doesn't really hold in my opinion. Pokemon feels much more like a duel / dance than Magic to me, since both of you are jousting over the 'active' position. Having only one attacker at a time changes the entire dynamic.

With Hearthstone, I felt like my Magic sensibilities / card evaluation could fairly directly apply, but with Pokemon it felt like learning from Square 1.

Keyforge

The biggest strength of Keyforge is the removal of 'non-games'. It does have its share of RNG though. If one player's initial deck shuffle is 'clumpy' (groups of cards from individual houses) they'll simply have much smoother draws than their opponent. That said, as I've played the game, I've gone through multiple phases of how I even process playing it.

* phase 1: control the board
* phase 2: play as many cards as possible
* phase 3: differential ember maximization

I feel like the random deck thing mostly just makes it so that every deck feels like a limited draft deck, so you have to be okay with playing at that level of focus / power.
 
For me Pokémon is pretty much in line with Magic as a design. Sure, lands now go on creatures and the goal has changed to better fit its theme, but the play is very similar. It's simpler, because it was made for kids, but it seems very in line with the original design.

I don't know much about the state Pokémon nowadays but energy-less decks seem less of a design choice and more of another example of the game's balance being completely out of whack.

Well, these are few and far between, but every once in a while a stall deck that focuses entirely on healing and energy removal cards, or a lock deck that runs only 4 special energy develops into something playable. These decks can be the most challenging to pilot or play against, because they change the typical Prize Card-racing paradigm of the game. Suddenly, resource management or engineering a specific board state becomes the primary goal of one or both players. The diversity that these decks create is often healthy for a format, preventing it from growing stale or being dominated by the most dedicated aggressive decks (aggro isn't really a term in Pokemon, but every format has a deck(s) that shapes the tempo by being quick and efficient).

It is a simpler game in many ways, this is true. Each individual card has far less complexity and mechanical themes are present only in one-off designs. But the decisions it produces with these simpler components are of a very different nature to Magic, and have surprising merit.

Regarding some decks not playing energy, small changes to Magic's balance could also result in more creatures that didn't cost mana to play. After all, there are already some that don't, like Ornithopter. One can imagine a Magic-like game where you had more creatures that didn't cost mana to play, because the balance was different or because the cost was more focused on cards.

But that's the thing. If Magic suddenly was tilted in the favor of zero-mana cards, card advantage would become the main source of currency and tempo. But in Pokemon, card advantage as a concept exists on a more turn-to-turn, inconstant basis. You can play a card for free that draws you a new 7-card hand, but it will use up your Supporter for the turn. Hell, Supporters are closer to mana than Energies, in terms of how they comprise the main cost one is worried about using each turn, stumbling and missing one or drawing too many is bad, etc.

Here are some cards that have been competitive in the game's history:

111598_200w.jpg45137_200w.jpg

Both of these cards have attacks which require energy. But to actually use these attacks would be completely unheard of. These Pokemon are played for their static effects, and sit on the Bench, hence the term 'bench-sitter'. They are played independently of the 'color' (typing) of the deck's main attacker. They cannot block as in Magic, and instead can be prime targets for your opponent to 'gust' into the Active position and kill. They have nothing to do with mana. Instead, their cost lies in deck space, set-up time, and fragility. You pay these costs to either advance your strategy or disrupt your opponent, and use primarily powerful tutors (which are standard in every deck) to find them, which also can eat up deck space or utility. Essentialy, these are zero-cost Enchantments that are targetable by attacks, need to 'evolve' (similarly to a Meld card in MTG), have the ability to attack, are equipable, and you can attach lands to them. As you can see, I'm really having to reach to find an analogy. The game mechanics are just not comparable at all.

Also, if this is unbalanced, it has not changed as part of 'the state of Pokemon nowadays'. One of those cards was printed in the game's first expansion, in 1999. The other was printed only a few years ago and still sees play in Expanded.

One more case study:

90048_200w.jpg

If this were Magic, you might expect this to play like Standstill. This is such a huge amount of cards that you'd be a fool to do anything else, right? In Pokemon, attacking will end your turn, and you only get to attack with your singular Active Pokemon. But in plenty of matchups, the player who places this card into play will be the only one to ever activate it, while the other recognizes that they cannot afford to waste a turn, because their opponent is most vulnerable in this early set-up phase. This 'Stadium' card type is an zero-cost enchantment with an activated or static ability both players can use, that is sacrificed whenever another Stadium is played. So not as distant from the realm of Magic, but still a distinct departure.
 
But that's the thing. If Magic suddenly was tilted in the favor of zero-mana cards, card advantage would become the main source of currency and tempo.
But it would still be Magic, wouldn't it?

What I'm trying to get across is that changing cards is not a fundamental change in design. You could have many kinds of Magic and, in fact, we already do. We could have Magic where mill is the main win condition, Magic where card draw is abundant and stapled to most cards (like Wall of Blossoms) or Magic where tutors and draw sevens are in every deck. And they would all play very differently, but the game would still be fundamentally the same.

Consider checkers. One could say that American checkers is a completely different game than Continental checkers. The board is smaller, there are less pieces, queens don't "fly" and you can't capture backwards. But to me it would still be a checkers variant.

Still, it's fine to feel different. There's no hard rule that separates a "new game" from a "variant" and it's fine to have different standards. For me it's just that there's a clear cluster of Magic-like games which is clearly separate from, say, Netrunner, Legend of the Five Rings LCG or Middle Earth.
 
I see many of you guys giving me cube advice and I just want to say: I often don't say anything because I don't know enough to give good advice myself!
 
So apparently the MTGS crew has been charting the cards with the best performance in 3-0 decks in their cubes. They have over 370 3-0 deck lists recorded.

Apparently the most winning red cards are, and I'm not kidding you: Magma Jet, Flametongue Kavu, and Fiery Confluence with 29 3-0s each.

Even Lightning Bolt only has 28.

The most winning card overall is Mox Diamond, with 55 wins, and the most winning reasonably powered card is City of Brass with 54 wins.

The most winning colored spell overall is Vendillion Clique with 49 wins.

What strikes me as interesting about this list is that the most winning cards aren't the really splashy haymakers, but the fundamental bones of a Magic deck. There are some pretty insane top cards (Looking at you mind twist and Demonic Tutor), but there's also stuff like Magma Jet, which is simply ok.

I think the lesson to be learned here is: higher powered cards do not lead to more winning. Utility/toolbelt cards are actually the best.
 
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