General CBS

[Chris Taylor]

I feel like plague engineer in a draft setting is just asking to name human and nothing else.
I've also cut Scooze, Voice and Liliana, the Last Hope for being to hard on aggro

 

[japahn]

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Knight of Autumn and Siege Rhino are the sort of thing that hoses aggro. It's hard to make cube aggro be strong enough to beat strong midrange stabilizers. That does seem like an especially bad matchup. Paring down on the power level/density of midrange threats would help, but it changes the environment quite a bit.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

That Abzan deck seems tailor made to crush aggro. A nice suite of early removal into life gain and big butts, with even a sweeper thrown in for good measure, and two planeswalkers to lock up the match. It's going to be pretty hard for the aggro deck to capitalize on tempo if the opponent is dropping business from t2 onwards.

Honestly, for a cube of this caliber, the reach might be a problem. Red aggro decks likes their burn spells to go face, especially in high power cubes, but you run Anger of the Gods, Sweltering Suns, and Storm's Wrath, all of which are a nightmare for aggro decks, as well as Arc Trail, which is also a perfect anti-aggro tool. Then there's Red Sun's Zenith, Mizzium Mortars, and Abrade, which are also not that great in an aggressive deck. Where's the Fireblast and the Chain Lightning? Also, Giver of Runes instead of Mother of Runes while you run a human subtheme in white? By the way, another great red aggro creature that happens to be a human is Kari Zev, Skyship Raider!

 

[Karn Cuberated]

Where's the Fireblast and the Chain Lightning?

Eeeeh.... Seems like I haven't uploaded ALL of the "recent" (in fact, month-ago) changes to CubeCobra... CubeTutor list (and the RW decklist itself) already has Chain Lightning. I promise to update CC list as soon as possible. The thing is I'm very busy these days even despite the quarantine, so sometimes I forget about such things.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

So.
Taking everyone's pieces of advice into account, I'm going to cut Siege Rhino and keep an eye on the rest of the law-breakers mentioned above. Also I'll try to give red aggro more ways to break through Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet type of cards that are expected to stonewall the rush of creatures. I'm looking forward to adding Flametongue Kavu (I wonder why I haven't been cubing it until this moment), Hazoret the Fervent and Glorybringer. We've already tested the Boros Aggro vs. Abzan Rock matchup with the aggro pilot using Hazoret and Glory-bee, and RW's winrate was much higher with them being played. In our cube experience one guy has already had a match where he was playing Boros Aggro having a huge flying top-end threat like Thundermaw Hellkite in his draft pile and for some reason not maindecking it. Maybe, he was trying to stay low on curve. Bringing Hellkite to the main after sideboarding, however, made his deck much more competitive. I guess, these changes will also push Rx midrange decks (I mean the ones which are leaning towards to the goodstuff plan rather than to the ramp strategy). In my cube they show up quite rarely.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I think Siege Rhino, while a very strong card, is not the biggest offender. It's a one time effect, and it's three different colors. Taking out just Siege Rhino is not going to change the deck from coming together again, just saying

 

[Karn Cuberated]

I think Siege Rhino, while a very strong card, is not the biggest offender. It's a one time effect, and it's three different colors. Taking out just Siege Rhino is not going to change the deck from coming together again, just saying

Well, it's not just my intention to nerf Rock that lead to this decision. What also matters in this case is I feel like there's already enough beef in the Abzan section, and this slot could be occupied with something else.

 

[Chris Taylor]

In terms of cut per impact, siege rhino is going to have the smallest effect since as a 3 color card it doesn't get played as often. If you want a different card in the Abzan slot sure, but I don't know if you need to consider aggro to make that decision.

In terms of the cards we talked about that hose aggro:
Scavenging Ooze, Voice of Resurgence, Liliana, the last Hope, Knight of Autumn, Plague Engineer, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Siege Rhino

I feel like you can safely cut plague engineer and not miss much.
When it works it's just a wildly under-priced curse of death's hold and when it doesn't it's just grey ogre, so I'm not sure it's an effect you want in general.

Scavenging Ooze, Liliana, and Knight of Autumn all have side benifits like graveyard hate, mill, artifact destruction etc, so if you can cut something else I'd go for that. (Unless of course you feel threatened by them on power level, which is something I did find for Scooze and Liliana, though your cube might differ)

Cleatus is technically graveyard hate, but it's just a statmonster with lifelink. I feel like especially at 4, you've got an abundance of cooler things you could be doing.

 

[Brad]

Cut Engineer. Card's randomly a total dickhead.

I'd also take a look at my ramp options if I were you. Your green section excels at ramping out some fat and locking aggro out. I had this problem in a past cube where green absolutely destroyed aggro because it was always hitting a t2 4/4 and/or t3 5/5.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

In terms of cut per impact, siege rhino is going to have the smallest effect since as a 3 color card it doesn't get played as often. If you want a different card in the Abzan slot sure, but I don't know if you need to consider aggro to make that decision.

I'm planning to replace it with some multicolored card from a completely different section (perhaps, Domri, Anarch of Bolas to advertise Gruul Aggro better).
You're right, this replacement won't nerf Abzan that much, but a greater decrease in power (for now) doesn't seem to be needed anymore. I feel like we managed to achieve balance between the two decks by giving more spice to the aggro's mid-to-late game shell, where the problems mostly used to start.

In terms of the cards we talked about that hose aggro:

Scavenging Ooze, Voice of Resurgence, Liliana, the last Hope, Knight of Autumn, Plague Engineer, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Siege Rhino

I don't know how it behaves in people's environments, but in mine Scooze feels pretty safe (my playgroup confirms it), and Voice is even more gentle, in my opinion.

Kalitas and Liliana can for sure be called aggro-hating cards, but, to my mind, they're not that backbreaking when the aggro player has enough reach. However, I heard all of you, guys, and, as I said, I will keep watch... Where have I heard this phrase, though?

I feel like you can safely cut plague engineer and not miss much.
When it works it's just a wildly under-priced curse of death's hold and when it doesn't it's just grey ogre, so I'm not sure it's an effect you want in general.

Cut Engineer. Card's randomly a total dickhead.

It hasn't seen that much play yet, but I'm considering the cut. What could we play instead? I have several candidates:

Spoiler

Leaning towards my old pet card Fleshbag Marauder. I've been wanting to see how his staxing effect works in cube for a long time.
EDIT: I know there's also Woe Strider, but I'm already planning to replace Plague Belcher with it.

I'd also take a look at my ramp options if I were you. Your green section excels at ramping out some fat and locking aggro out. I had this problem in a past cube where green absolutely destroyed aggro because it was always hitting a t2 4/4 and/or t3 5/5.

All right, heard you, thanks. Though, Ramp hasn't appeared to be that badass yet. The most obnoxious scenario I've seen so far was t2 Courser of Kruphix against an aggro deck. But it general aggro in my cube seems to perfrom well against Ramp: last draft Rakdos Burn had a 2-1 win against Naya Ramp.

 

[Seeker]

Has anyone ever tried Masterful Ninja? I can't tell if "uncounterable, pro-sorcery 0 mana 1/1 haste" is too strong, too weak, or something in between. Obviously best with anthems, Ninjas, and similar things that pay you off for having a tiny creature. Worth noting that it shouldn't keep +1/+1 counters or Equipment.

Leaning that it's slightly too strong to include (compare Sentinel Dispatch, which gives up attacking for token and artifact status but blocks exactly as well in a slow deck) but would really appreciate info from the few people around who are relatively sane about cube power levels.

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

I think most of the time, the colorless hasty 1/1 that one wants is Gingerbrute, because of the evasion, easier grokkability, and the ability to hold buffs. It's also an artifact which may be useful. I just see it encouraging more synergy.

The important thing to remember for the Conspiracies is that they don't take up a slot in your deck, or even, crucially, your hand. Sentinel Dispatch is a P1P1 contender in a lot of cubes. Masterful Ninja is far less powerful. I'm not sure if it's stronger or weaker than Gingerbrute. The ability to make it into a bigger, perhaps 4/4 haste creature in the late game is nice, especially since you just get to hold up mama and watch them struggle through combat. In that late game scenario the fact that is uncounterable also comes into play. I don't remember if it was good in Unstable draft. There might be a pick order online somewhere.

 

[shamizy]

I've been thinking about the implementation of a Dimir Saboteur-lite archetype with so many more bounce spells in cube nowadays and thought a great intersection would work with Ninjas. Added Ninja of the Deep Hours and Mist-Syndicate Naga recently after reading so many good things about them.

Then I remembered that there were a ton of smaller creatures in U/B with power or toughness equal to one and thought oh man, Tetsuko Umezawa would be sweet! The evasion could be really good. And if I put in Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow under my Dimir section I can even use Tetsuko to trigger it because she's OBVIOUSLY another NIN--



Nevermind. I'll still probably find a slot for her, but my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Then I remembered that there were a ton of smaller creatures in U/B with power or toughness equal to one and thought oh man, Tetsuko Umezawa would be sweet! The evasion could be really good

I recently cut Tetsuko from my cube. The problem is that it makes combat really uninteractive and leads to polar matches. You're hitting them with little unblockables, ninja's if you're in luck, and there's not a lot the opponent can do. Unless they've got an instant kill spell of course, in which case half your board gets slaughtered in the ensuing carnage. I've found I much prefer the gameplay of other enablers, like Departed Deckhand, Key to the City, Nightbird's Clutches, Frostveil Ambush (which plays much better than it looks because it's also a one mana cantrip), and of course various tempo-oriented spells like cheap bounce.

 

[inscho]

I really like this card for blue based tempo decks:



It plays well with white’s tapping effects Like law-rune enforcer and gives more play to pestermite. In general I like the way it shapes game play

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Due to Corona, I'm unwilling to host cube sessions at the moment, and when I did, I wasn't organizing more than six drafts or so a year. So, of course I am now thinking about a potential third cube: The Grand Odyssey Cube. The idea is to make a kind of set cube based on Odyssey with influences from Innistrad design, picking up extras from wherever to round out the format. "So," I hear you thinking, "kind of a graveyard cube then?" Well... yes. But with a decidedly Odyssey look and feel, so using that block's mechanics and uhm... look and feel?



Is this a ridiculous idea?

 

[blacksmithy]

i love it! graveyard cubes are awesome. i use a few odyssey cards in my evolving wilds cube actually.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Due to Corona, I'm unwilling to host cube sessions at the moment, and when I did, I wasn't organizing more than six drafts or so a year. So, of course I am now thinking about a potential third cube: The Grand Odyssey Cube. The idea is to make a kind of set cube based on Odyssey with influences from Innistrad design, picking up extras from wherever to round out the format. "So," I hear you thinking, "kind of a graveyard cube then?" Well... yes. But with a decidedly Odyssey look and feel, so using that block's mechanics and uhm... look and feel?

View attachment 3249

Is this a ridiculous idea?

Interesting. You miiiight want different art/name as the innistrad...ness seems off. I dunno, replicating a specific look and feel is so hard, I'm so happy my cube is just this giant flavor mishmash
Also I'm interested to see where trying to replicate odyssey templating gets you.

So, I've been working on getting my cube draftable online. Dr4ft.info works wonders with the actual draft, and it does accept JSON or XML (Cocatrice or Xmage formatting), but it is a lot of work. I've Just now finished entering all the real cards into a MSE file for export, but it is possible

I'll be sure to post about it if/once I do get it done

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Also I'm interested to see where trying to replicate odyssey templating gets you.

Welllll... It sure gets interesting One of the first things I knew I wanted to do is add a dash of multicolor support that played into Odyssey's strengths. Odyssey isn't huge on multicolor, but one commonly held design principle, nowadays, is that multicolored cards can guide drafters into what the color pair is supposed to do. I'm probably going to borrow a lot of cards from Innistrad block for this, though I'll be skipping all the tribal support for sure.

Anyway, one of the first spells I knew I wanted to borrow from Innistrad is Spider Spawning, but I also wanted the token to be used on another card, preferably common. Enter these two "beauties". I honestly don't know whether to giggle for joy or be abhorred at the ancient templating And of course, once you go there, you also have to mockup a token in the old style.

Lord... can I still abandon this project? :')



For reference: Spider Spawning and Twin-Silk Spider.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Hey man I'm from the "unaffected by summoning sickness" days, you aint gotta shy away none from me

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I might need to open a new cube thread for this endeavor, if I still fancy it next week



I decided on one true gold uncommon in each color (since I have to include Psychatog) and four faux multicolor cards, where the casting cost is one color, but for some reason it gets stronger if you have the other color. So, off-color flashback, a Vigor Mortis style bonus, or an off-color activation cost. Stuff like that. Haven't looked at the other colors at all, yet (except for Psychatog), but was fun

Oh right, the original Skull Prophet for reference.

 

[Rusje]

I loved odyssey block. The tension between threshold and flashback. It turned common sense upside down since a card in the yard was sometimes better than a card in hand. One thing to note that you probably are aware off, the power level of creatures was way way below what it is in innistrad block. I am curious do you want to include color imbalance as in the original?

 

[Brad]

I have an Onslaught cube sitting in my CC as a theoretical secondary cube in addition to the -1 mana cube lol. I update them all a bit with each set release. My design philosophy has changed recently and I'm trying to reconcile how The Black Cube fits with that.

Just do it.

 

[Velrun]

A cube based mostly on

Odyssey set?
Odyssey block?
Odyssey plane?

I’m thinking Jumpstart is a new way to create cubes. A little top easy actually and it doesn’t give players the opportunity to actually choose their own direction. But you could also create some Jumpstart sets and have an Odyssey set among them? Or several Odyssey sets among them?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I loved odyssey block. The tension between threshold and flashback. It turned common sense upside down since a card in the yard was sometimes better than a card in hand. One thing to note that you probably are aware off, the power level of creatures was way way below what it is in innistrad block.

This is certainly true, but power creep hasn't affected cards equally across the board:

1. Rares have become more powerful
2. High cmc cards have become more powerful across rarities
3. The floor is not as low as it used to be across rarities

Cards like Wild Mongrel, Hallowed Healer and Mental Note would be fine in contemporary formats, while cards like Angel of Retribution (which exemplifies all three categories perfectly) would be atrocious.

I am curious do you want to include color imbalance as in the original?

No, I wasn't planning on including a color imbalance. The three sets each have their own color distribution, and I don't feel like introducing a complicated booster collation process just to replicate the color distribution of the original block draft. Also, I'm with MaRo on this one, color imbalance isn't actually naturally conducive to a good limited environment. Of course Brad has done a lot of work on his black cube, and I do appreciate the novelty of that cube, but of all the gimmicks of the original block, I'm unlikely to keep this one. Also, if you take a look at the whole block, the color balance is actually surprisingly even. Where Torment had more black cards and less white and green cards, Judgment was the reverse, and in the end it's all a wash anyway.