General CBS

[Seeker]

There are 60 commons in DIS (I don't know where you found 57, both the wiki and scryfall say 60)

huh. neither do I, because I know I got 57 from some search query... oh, I had "is:firstprint" included because I was reusing a previous query for something related to this, so the count omitted Seal of Fire, Seal of Doom, and the reprint that everyone obviously remembers, Thrive from Prophecy (I had no idea this was a reprint until I started looking yesterday)

Each booster pack contains 11 commons. Since the same booster pack cannot contain the same card twice (I think), this is not 88 repetitions of a 1/60 chance, but 8 repetitions of a 11/60 chance. So the probability of having four or more Aquastrand Spiders in a RGD draft is around 4.22%. Having exactly four is around 3.52%.

no duplicates is true - excluding foils, which I'm fine with - so yeah, that actually does make it 8 bullets at 11/60 per bullet, significantly easier!
(actually now that I think about it, with 60 commons in the set there's either not a short printed common [2x60 = 120 and discard 1 filler] or there's a single overprinted common averaging C3 per sheet vs all else C2)
(assuming DIS is like other sets from that era the sheet is 11x11 = 121 total. it's impossible to find pictures of old uncut sheets on the internet these days but I'm confident in that)

This will make around 275 cards in total if you do a curated list: each common goes in 3 copies but maybe the ones you feel like are more important and playable in the draft environment can go to 4 copies (or even 5! maybe for the bouncelands only) each, while the unplayable ones can go down to 1-2 copies or even be removed (even though I would keep at least 1 copy of each common). Same for the uncommons: for each one you put between 0 and 2 copies depending on how much you like it, and the same for the rares between 0 and 1. I would aim for a total of around 175 commons, 80 uncommons and 20 rares (?)

if I had 5 of each Karoo, every draft I'd end up with the deck from my favorite Magic "strategy" article ever where he has 11 Karoos and 4 basics
to readers who want to not miss my favorite joke in that article: keep your eye on the Dromad Purebreds...

but in general I think aggressive curation is going to be the only physically feasible way to do it... although you can't possibly make me want even a single copy of Street Savvy or, closer to the playability line, something like Caregiver.

debating cutting all the random land destruction subtheme that I guess must have been aimed at Karoos? I guess Rolling Spoil can stay, that one's got other upside, but the rest, they just hated fun! or they hated Stone-Seeder Hierophant specifically (ever cast an 8-drop on turn 5?!)

 

[ravnic]

Thinking of building a cube intended to replicate a retail draft environment. (Original Ravnica block, 05-06, so I did the math accordingly below.) A bit more curation, but mostly in the rares which don't much matter for this question. Is there preexisting math for how many copies of a C/U/R you "should" have in your population to feel like eight packs out of a retail booster box?

I did a lot of useless calculations, people who don't care can skip to the end:
Scryfall says there's 57 commons in Dissension.
A draft is 8 packs * 11 commons each (ignoring foils replacing one back then) => 88 commons from a pool of 57 => 88/57 = 1.54 copies per draft in expectation (if uniformly distributed, see justifcation below)

But, picking the easiest example to find in the format:
Takuya Osawa's PT Prague 2006 winning draft deck had 3 Aquastrand Spiders
plus Big Oots's deck (does anyone else even remember that was Rasmus Sibast's nickname?) had another.

If commons are uniformly distributed*
*and they should be, we know a maximum of 1 common is underprinted per set
**one can safely assume that you can start anywhere in the print run fragments contained within the pack whether it's an AB set or an ABC set or whatever (lethe.xyz does not have collation info for the original block)
Then this is a binomial distribution since we're selecting "with replacement" from an infinite pool, so we expect to see 4+ copies of "a given fixed common, so in this case specifically Aquastrand Spider" just under 7% of the time.

But there's 57 commons so that's actually "0.93 chance to not see 4 Aquastrand Spiders" and then there's 56 other commons...
But but this is not actually indepdendent because of print runs - if we fail to see 4x Spider we also know that we have a noticeably decreased chance of seeing 4x of either of the 2+ commons next to Spider anywhere on the sheet...

And you can see why I'm asking! (It's because I'm dumb)
Is it just "X of every common of the small sets and Y of the large set, less for uncommons, shrug and ship it?"
Do people typically use more complicated distribution methods than shuffling together three sets and hoping it works out?
Any information much appreciated, I know this is a thing people have done before but I don't know if anyone actually cared enough to crunch numbers!

I was at this point, more or less, but I decided to go for a more curated environment for two reasons: 1. the juice didn't seem worth the squeeze with how much math and preparation you had to do and 2. I never like how impossible it was to draft a focused guild deck in the full block format. I considered to just copy triple RAV, but then figured out a solution with guild modules that allowed me to include all ten.

I don't want to stop you, it could be a cool project. But I think you don't need Street Savvy and Zephyr Spirit in the packs to make Skyknight Legionnaire and Vedalken Entrancer good (enough).

I also would recommend to avoid Glare of Subdual, it's broken and takes much longer to kill than Flame Fussilade.

 

[Seeker]

I don't want to stop you, it could be a cool project. But I think you don't need Street Savvy and Zephyr Spirit in the packs to make Skyknight Legionnaire and Vedalken Entrancer good (enough).

I also would recommend to avoid Glare of Subdual, it's broken and takes much longer to kill than Flame Fussilade.

Strongly agree on the first point.

Second point: miles ahead of you, I've cut:
Glare of Subdual (for that reason)
Windreaver (beatable, but expert players know exactly how it works and less enfranchised players will misplay to the point of activating it to death, so let's not do that)
Skeletal Vampire (again, beatable, but miserable to play against and not fun to play with to compensate for that)
Pride of the Clouds (this has the Proclamation of Rebirth problem where Forecast was just an AWFUL mechanic, I don't want a game where one player is spending four mana on this and the other is spending four mana on Selesnya Guildmage every single turn blah blah)
Ursapine (not actually power level, but it grinds combat to a screeching halt. its only virtue is killing you quickly and I don't need that in a cube environment.)

 

[Rusje]

I have an urza block cube. What I have learned is that rarity is a poor substitute for power: rancor vs yawgmoth’s will,
the will is bonkers in constructed, but in cube it is okayish. This is opposed to rancor which is an all star in cube but not that great in constructed.
If you desire a retail draft format (which can be really great), than one is better off by picking a block and cutting the chaff than caring about rarity.

As a side note: a block cube works due to having the same power level on general, only a few keywords and so on.

 

[alvoi]

if I had 5 of each Karoo, every draft I'd end up with the deck from my favorite Magic "strategy" article ever where he has 11 Karoos and 4 basics

This is the most beautiful draft walkthrough I ever read

I have an urza block cube. What I have learned is that rarity is a poor substitute for power: rancor vs yawgmoth’s will,
the will is bonkers in constructed, but in cube it is okayish. This is opposed to rancor which is an all star in cube but not that great in constructed.
If you desire a retail draft format (which can be really great), than one is better off by picking a block and cutting the chaff than caring about rarity.

As a side note: a block cube works due to having the same power level on general, only a few keywords and so on.

So your advice would be just put every single card from RAV/GPT/DIS in one cube and remove the draft chaff and the broken stuff? With no repetition of cards?

 

[Rusje]

So your advice would be just put every single card from RAV/GPT/DIS in one cube and remove the draft chaff and the broken stuff? With no repetition of cards?

I would suggest to have multiples of some cards but not based on rarity but the need for your environment. Typically, in a limited booster draft one has all the things one needs in the commons with anchors often at uncommon. Also on a booster draft one often has multiples of commons and sometimes uncommons.
Here is a link to the urza cube https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/16se
where I followed the following rules:
Cut the really weak chaff and the cards that are only good in constructed (or need a shitload of cards to work, e.g. the parasitic ones like dark rituals etc).
double up on the fun and/or necessary cards. Necessary cards are removal, fun is up to you.
Test it out, a card power level can be completely different than in constructed. Do not be afraid of cards that seem too powerful, the cube might surprise you how much it can handle.

 

[Seeker]

Cut the really weak chaff and the cards that are only good in constructed (or need a shitload of cards to work, e.g. the parasitic ones like dark rituals etc).

noooo I need turn two Dark Ritual -> Befoul your Forest to kill your Pouncing Jaguar cause you can't pay echoooooo
("actually happened in historical Japan Los Angeles")

I absolutely agree that duplication is important for sort-of-two-different reasons:
1) People who want The X Draft Experience are probably thinking of something specific (Burning Vengeance in Innistrad, Peel from Reality in RGD...)
2) Even the decks without the specific build-arounds like Spider Spawning will want more than one copy of a specific effect, because you're actively aiming for "well there's lots of this at common" (the second Aquastrand Spider or Vigean Hydropon is going to be better than the first in some cases, etc)

very important update: since I know you were all on tenterhooks... the Benediction of Moons in Quentin Martin's PT Prague 2006 T8 draft decklist is a data entry error! He actually played the Sandstorm Eidolon that's listed as being in the sideboard. I can safely cut the former without jeopardizing someone's retro RGD experience. I literally emailed the man to ask and he replied very quickly, it was very nice of him.

 

[Rusje]

Now I want to add dark ritual… thing is, it is soo bad late game

 

[Seeker]

It's atrocious late-game. While the story is hilarious, I think you're 100% right to not have it in.

 

[Brad]

@Seeker Is this idea strictly nostalgia bait?

 

[KeithCubes]

Never ending spoiler season continues!

I'm thinking this is a pretty solid cube card though, right?

Pretty neatly does a lot of what Golgari is after; saccing things, gaining life, putting counters on stuff. She makes combat really tough for your opponent since you can always sac one creature to buff the other, but leaves a little room for getting blown out yourself with the compromise that you'll still get to draw a card out of it.

You can even play this on curve with a mobilize creature and draw the turn she comes in. The other commanders didn't look too exciting but this looks like a solid role player to me.

 

[Brad]

Works with Spawns/Scions for a draw or lets you trash a big Eldrazi for life. Can slowly gain a ton of life by saccing a 10/10 onto a 1/1 or whatever, then sac the 11/11 onto another 1/1 for a 12/12...

Spoiler: Gross SOS Spoiler

So ugly.

 

[LadyMapi]

I think I'd generally pick Hieroglyphic Illumination over Mathemagics unless I was reasonably certain I'd be able to cast it for or more in each game I brought it to.

I guess it might work out if you're specifically looking for a version of Braingeyser that's a reasonable win-con for ramp decks instead of combo decks? for "villain draws 32 cards and probably loses" is certainly something...

The other commanders didn't look too exciting but this looks like a solid role player to me.

I mostly agree with you, but I think Killian, Decisive Mentor has potential if your format is on O-Rings.

 

[Seeker]

@Seeker Is this idea strictly nostalgia bait?

...well, yeah. it was an attempt to spark joy in a cold and merciless universes beyond.

Spoiler: Gross SOS Spoiler

So ugly.

I wish the foil version of this did the 10th edition "no reminder text" thing. That would be funny.

 

[MilesOfficial]

One of my most frequent annoyances these days with WotC is their lack of a standard and/or changing standards around reminder text.

As the only evoke cards in the entire set, I think they should have worked especially hard to ensure that they can show the reminder text on each of them. I am grateful that the only one I want to Cube with (and the only one I've opened, the first chase card I've pulled from a booster in a year or so) is one of the two with the evoke text:



Just look at Vibrance! It's evoke! Sure, some iconic cards have the mechanic, but every card (besides the Command-only Night Incarnate) with "evoke" prior to this cycle was either from a Modern Horizons set or printed before Obama took office. Ironically, it was the lack of reminder text, not just the power level, that was the final straw that made me take the evoke MH2 elementals out of my Cube, as sad as it was to do so.

Look, it sucks that they're still making promo versions and

This is how you do a cool alt-version of a card:



It's respectful! It makes no assumptions, it keeps the art. Do I know what Delve does? I sure as heck do. But even for the typical Magic experience, I don't want to assume my EDH opponent at the LGS knows what my esoteric cards do, I want them to tell you!! Reading the card SHOULD explain the card!

Look at this:

What's this? What the heck is "conspire"? Oh that mechanic with hardly a dozen uses from a set from almost 20 years ago? That's been on two commander cards since? Why is the art "extended"? Did you really force the artist to draw a version of it that has 40% more image and expect it to work out well in both forms?

(in all honesty this is one of the better extended arts, because I don't really feel like I'm missing out on the ideal framing of the image in the original, and I simply get "more" / neat easter eggs with the extended version, but for most cards with an extended version the "standard" version of a card looks cropped and this is just not a great way to treat art imo)

AND YET

THE ONE TIME

THE ONE TIME

WHERE THE LACK OF REMINDER TEXT SHOULD 10000% BE REMOVED AS UNNECESSARY.....

it's a math set!!! it's just exponentials. Exponential Growth had no such babying.

There's a reason Time Stop's 10th edition foil printing was famous.



This is the situation where you're going to have to whip out the rulebook or know your shit before you cast it. This goes so far into rules territory that yes, at this point, it's fine to just say "hold up, we're going to have to halt the game anyways" if you're playing with anyone not 100% familiar, so you might as well keep the card clean.

Of ALL cards to remove reminder text on, the extended art of this card should be clean:

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Of ALL cards to remove reminder text on, the extended art of this card should be clean:

I disagree. Who the hell wants to do unnecessary algebra and exponentials while playing Magic?

I get it's easy math, but like, come on. Not cool.

 

[MilesOfficial]

I disagree. Who the hell wants to do unnecessary algebra and exponentials while playing Magic?

I get it's easy math, but like, come on. Not cool.

the kind of people who want to play a card called "mathemagics" (and also those who play things like KCI and Valakut)

but also

I'd be mad if the standard version of the card didn't spell it out

but this is the one case where it'd be clean to have it on the bonus version!!

 

[alvoi]

Yes exactly, there are two versions: make one for the mathemagicians and one for the others!!