General Changes to The Pro Tour Payouts

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
But it is only a bad sign for the health of the game if you consider that competitive Magic is the best way for it to be represented, which might not be the case anymore. I agree that they need a presence there, but I disagree with how much presence they actually need. Having an actual experience related to an event might be much more in line with their new direction.

Think of the Markov Manor/Geralf's Lab/Abbey escape the room thing they had to promote SoI, for instance. That seemed to be super interesting and reaches a far greater group of people than just the PT competitive experience ever would. And personally, while I disagree with the sloppy execution of how they are phasing out competitive play, I agree with their quarterly marketing events to be more celebration of the game, than bring celebrations of the most optimal way to play the game.

Its not a question of whats the best or worst way of being represented: its being ran off your demographic because you can't compete with your competitors due to missing the market shift towards digital platforms.

I don't know anything nor care about the escape room you mentioned, but I did pay attention to the innovative gb control deck whose tech we've brewed about here: a deck that probably wouldn't exist without the money incentive to develop for pro events.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
What are the reasons Magic (per Sperling) makes a fraction of what it could? Because the spectacle is awful. What do they need to do to make the spectacle less awful?

—More money
—Divorce itself from HoF mugwumps like EFro and Huey
—Hire a digital development team and probably change the game

Anyway I've put together a lot of information and gossip and this is likely the start of trying to make Magic into an eSport, which I fully support even if it fails. Gotta clean house first. You can't just give Owen a real salary after he's proven he'll work for less, nor really should you. Wadds and James, you guys stopped by the Pro Tour and agreed it sucked, and it will suck no less because of defunding Platinum, but it might suck less without all the horrendous cliqueishness

Sperling claims that WotC is the worst of corporate culture and that the community is "great" but somehow misses that the community is terrible because it's like working for a corporation that doesn't pay you. The secondary market is infected by this cult attitude too. Come on, this forum exists because it's one of the few groups of contrarians in Magic but we aren't trying to commercialize, look at MTS and CFB and SCG and tell me that a sea change isn't needed

This is a slam dunk and it's really funny that Finkel, Kibler and Sperling don't get it at all

The easy part is firing most of the brand reps. The hard part is: how to transform the game into a Hearthstone competitor?

The fact that you have to pay to have an MTGO account is insulting. Make MTGO:
1) good
2) free-to-play

and you'll be well on your way.

Agree on Magic culture. Attending a PTQ is one of the worst social experiences I've ever had. The PT was indeed miserable, and no amount of cash will salvage that. They held a GP in my own town and I didn't even attend.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
The fact that you have to pay to have an MTGO account is insulting. Make MTGO:
1) good
2) free-to-play

and you'll be well on your way.

Agree on Magic culture. Attending a PTQ is one of the worst social experiences I've ever had. The PT was indeed miserable, and no amount of cash will salvage that. They held a GP in my own town and I didn't even attend.

Wait, like there's a monthly fee for logging in?
I mean I assume they're so horribly down on modo that they're not confidant that event entry alone could keep them under budget, so point 1 before point 2, unless we think actually hiring a proper dev team for modo is all it takes for modo to be good.

As a programmer, it'll probably take more than that, or at least some time
 
As a person who isn't effected in the slightest by the changes one way or another, making the sudden changes without any kind of realistic explanation is what really surprised me. I asked my wife, who barely understands my fascination with this game, to read Sperling's article and ask what she thought. She summed it up with "Well, that's fucked up. Why are they taking away things they promised?"

Hasn't there always been issues with MTGO as a program as well as a concept? I've heard mixed rumours from people saying that Wizards can't afford the good programmers due to the Seattle area being a hotbed for tech companies, so the good programmers are going where the money is. Can't fault them for that, I guess. But Wizards also doesn't want to outsource the creation of the program to a third-party for...reasons.

I agree with the general concensus that Wizards is out of touch and Hasbro is out of the loop.

Also, I will just shove out there that Matt Sperling is easily the worst person to read in any kind of Magic forum. From his Twitter handle to his insipid "Sick of It" articles to his repeated just-in-case-you-didn't-catch-my-drift-I'm-going-to-repeat-"A Hasbro subsidiary" thing in his blog post, the guy is a hack, who through the amazingly influential power of bullshit, managed to garner some kind of sycophant following on CFB. Just seeing his article in the "Most Recent" list makes me leave the site for a week or so before it gets buried on page 2.
 
I don't know anything nor care about the escape room you mentioned, but I did pay attention to the innovative gb control deck whose tech we've brewed about here: a deck that probably wouldn't exist without the money incentive to develop for pro events.

I'm sorry to tell you, but right now you are representing a very limited demographic that is very easy to be pleased. My point was that we, the stats junkies, the metagame watchers, the optimizers, we are easy to please. And we most likely don't give as good a return over investment anymore. Not as much as the players that enjoyed the escape the room thing, at least. And that is not a bad thing either, because we will still have our abstract pillar for representing competitive play. It will just have more investment on putting the eyes on the game than making 30 players live out of it.

(And we will still have our ambassadors for competitive play, but they will still be the same guys that are fine to play for almost nothing, because they either have money already, or they don't see themselves needing much)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm sorry to tell you, but right now you are representing a very limited demographic that is very easy to be pleased. My point was that we, the stats junkies, the metagame watchers, the optimizers, we are easy to please. And we most likely don't give as good a return over investment anymore. Not as much as the players that enjoyed the escape the room thing, at least. And that is not a bad thing either, because we will still have our abstract pillar for representing competitive play. It will just have more investment on putting the eyes on the game than making 30 players live out of it.

(And we will still have our ambassadors for competitive play, but they will still be the same guys that are fine to play for almost nothing, because they either have money already, or they don't see themselves needing much)


I think you misunderstood what I meant. I'm not a stat junkie, metagame watcher, or optimizer. I'm a casual player, and I (like many casual players) just don't care about the lore or haunted houses or escape rooms. I had literally no idea that they were doing an escape room as some sort of promotional event, and seeing as wizards is not in the business of designing escape rooms, I'm not sure why I should care. An escape room does nothing to put eyes on the game, it distracts from the game.

On the other hand, I benefit from the competitive scene, because the prize structure provides a giant incentive for people to invest the time and resources in pushing the bounds of the game, and making sure it stays fresh and relevant with new cards and strategies.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
The escape room was at the Grand Prix, it was covered on the Grand Prix stream, and it was promoted by the Twitter account that was also promoting the Grand Prix. I love escape rooms and it must have been great for the people involved, but it's not separate from competitive Magic in that form.

I doubt you can make Magic a naturally watchable game unless you overhaul the game engine in a way that would ruin what we all enjoy about it. Trying to make it as simple or as visually intuitive/appealing as Hearthstone (or whatever) is a fool's errand, but you do have a highly invested player base who are all too willing to throw time and money at you. The WotC coverage forsakes them in favour of newer players, who are hard to draw in and let down by the WotC coverage because it's absolutely abysmal.
 

CML

Contributor
The fact that you have to pay to have an MTGO account is insulting. Make MTGO:
1) good
2) free-to-play

and you'll be well on your way.

Agree on Magic culture. Attending a PTQ is one of the worst social experiences I've ever had. The PT was indeed miserable, and no amount of cash will salvage that. They held a GP in my own town and I didn't even attend.


I wonder what "Magic Digital Next" will be!

Dom: yeah I dunno how they'll do it. Any ideas?
 
I doubt you can make Magic a naturally watchable game unless you overhaul the game engine in a way that would ruin what we all enjoy about it. Trying to make it as simple or as visually intuitive/appealing as Hearthstone (or whatever) is a fool's errand, but you do have a highly invested player base who are all too willing to throw time and money at you.

I honestly don't see why they couldn't make an intuitive and visually appealing version of the game.

They ought to introduce a free Hearthstone-esque version alongside their normal modo releases, lower the price tremendously on modo, and start moving everyone's attention away from modo in general.

I'm pretty sure that players who feel invested in the pro tour could care less about whether they're playing digitally vs. real. It's mostly the casual market who cares about the physical cardboard, and there's no reason why they couldn't keep that going alongside it.

We could finally be free of all these bad-feels cheating scandals! Good riddance.
 
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I'm not a stat junkie, metagame watcher, or optimizer. I'm a casual player, and I (like many casual players) just don't care about the lore or haunted houses or escape rooms. I had literally no idea that they were doing an escape room as some sort of promotional event, and seeing as wizards is not in the business of designing escape rooms, I'm not sure why I should care. An escape room does nothing to put eyes on the game, it distracts from the game.

On the other hand, I benefit from the competitive scene, because the prize structure provides a giant incentive for people to invest the time and resources in pushing the bounds of the game, and making sure it stays fresh and relevant with new cards and strategies.


OK, I think we are both slightly out of sync. I'll try make my point clearer and address our different understandings:

- I agree with you that casual players benefit from new brews and the latest top decklists.
- I disagree with how much support the competitive scene actually need to churn out new and interesting decks.
- I feel like our definitions of a casual player are drifting very apart, which is understandable. It's really hard to just say that someone is playing casually without making a clearer persona, and I guess that's where I lost the connection in our arguments.

To the purposes of this, let's say that the metagame watchers describes our behaviour when we follow tournaments to see the latest top decks and what innovations we can bring to our play spaces. This is an extremely refined play behaviour that's already beyond turning game into hobby. Sometimes we forget this because we are so into this right now, but evolving our behaviours into the point that we are consuming decklists takes some time to happen. We are so into the game, discussing it in our own specialized forum and such, that we don't perceive that we are past the point of no return in the Dunning-Kruger effect when it comes to this.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Sure, and what I am trying to explain is that any marketing effort has to focus on the cards, and result in an uptick in sales to both pay for and justify an event. It dosen't matter how you brand it, at the end of the day, the success or failure of an event will be judged in packs sold. By making the focus on the casual community's actions, rather than the cards, you're moving away from why we're investing the circa 500k or whatever it costs to put on an event. These aren't being hosted for community entertainment, thats an ancillery goal to the primary purpose of adverising new product.

WOTC is not a fiduciary for communities expectations, and thats important to remember, as the community seems to continually think it is. Wotc's job first and foremost is to kick earnings up to hasbro, and if they can't do it by expanding product sales (probably due to competition from hearthstone) they need to do it by cutting overhead (slashing pro player payouts). And if they are losing market share (which I am guessing is the case) those problems are not going away, and should be accessed strategically before pulling the plug: because thats where the big money is for these card games.

I could see using an escape room as a tool to try to boost event attendance for more casual players, but it does nothing in terms of televised coverage that puts eyes on the product. The escape room, haunted houses, cosplay, all of these anime expo type side attractions, go towards issues of marketing the event, not the cards.

Meanwhile, the pro scene's entire existance is contingent on sufficient prize money in the pool to justify investing so much time and resources in the game. The payouts have historically been terrible, and they are loudly proclaiming that this recent cut is too much. We can't reasonably say its possible to go cheaper than we are at now and still have a pro scene. If anything we want-ideally-to expand payouts to attract a broader demographic, and make televised coverage more entertaining.
 

CML

Contributor
Hasn't there always been issues with MTGO as a program as well as a concept? I've heard mixed rumours from people saying that Wizards can't afford the good programmers due to the Seattle area being a hotbed for tech companies, so the good programmers are going where the money is.

haha this was a joke

I agree with the general concensus that Wizards is out of touch and Hasbro is out of the loop.

Also, I will just shove out there that Matt Sperling is easily the worst person to read in any kind of Magic forum. From his Twitter handle to his insipid "Sick of It" articles to his repeated just-in-case-you-didn't-catch-my-drift-I'm-going-to-repeat-"A Hasbro subsidiary" thing in his blog post, the guy is a hack, who through the amazingly influential power of bullshit, managed to garner some kind of sycophant following on CFB. Just seeing his article in the "Most Recent" list makes me leave the site for a week or so before it gets buried on page 2.


The closest thing Magic has to a counterculture. And people defend the current system!
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
What are you negative nancys hating on this time. The last time I had a halloween costume I went as a cardboard box. People who can make this shit are pretty skilled and that's cool as far as I care.
 
What are you negative nancys hating on this time. The last time I had a halloween costume I went as a cardboard box. People who can make this shit are pretty skilled and that's cool as far as I care.

It's a joke, referenced from the first page, where I took a soft jab at another poster for suggesting the possibility of WOTC sponsoring cosplayers as an attempt at marketing and branding.
I 100% respect the work that goes into cosplay; my partner makes cosplay pieces from time to time for clients. I have no qualms with the cosplay scene; sorry to offend any resident cosplay fans or participants.
 
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