CML's Cube (405, polychromatic)

CML

Contributor
--OP--

new list (updated pretty regularly):

http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/114

old discussion:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/riptide-laboratory/JY-7jDYCn4o

newest update (as of april):
out: elesh norn, planar cleansing, borborygmos enraged, bonesplitter, wash out, protean hulk
in: 1x day of judgment, 1x skinshifter, 1x harm's way, 1x plated geopede, 1x attrition, 1x talara's battalion

rationale: nobody liked those cards, needed another cheaper wrath (good spot to be in!)
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I've done a couple mock drafts of your cube on TappedOut, and while I initially recoiled at your spread of gold cards in the other thread (OMG 12 GRUUL CARDS MY HEAD HURTS), I've come around. I don't think it's something everyone should try at home without the help of a trained professional, but your unusually high density of mana fixing makes all the multicolor work. I imagine that the standard number of 40 fixing lands is something that's generally accepted as a cube convention, but should be questioned. "Why not more" is something we should all ask about our own cubes.

Looking at your artifact section again, I just realized there's no artifact fixing or ramp whatsoever. I can't recall if we talked about this already, but what's the reasoning behind that? Just a way to keep ramp strictly in green's territory?

Oh, and post your list here! Especially the Google Doc link, that one's easier to navigate.
 

CML

Contributor
list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-cube-drafts/cmls-cube-is-awesome/ (this site has a bunch of options for sorting; the google doc is nice but i'm too lazy to update it)

bloodhall ooze is easy! it's just a wild nacatl in jund. so b/r/g. and it's terrible.

eric: haha, glad you liked it! i'll reiterate that the most important part of my cube philosophy is having a lot of fixing; slightly fewer than ~1/5 lands works out to 8-9 lands per drafter, which means you can play more of your picks and hit your colors more consistently, reducing the incidence of 'non-games' due to color-screw. it also broadens the amount of possibilities across colors and makes multi-color aggro more of a thing. drafting zoo is really fun. (i will say that the bots on the tappedout site never take lands, making it possible to build basically the perfect 4c midrange deck, which doesn't come together too often with, uh, real players.)
re. the artifact mana, i don't mind it (though i did cut signets) except i dunno what i should include beyond mind stone. e.g. i've tried and cut pristine talisman. so: prismatic lens? worn powerstone? springleaf drum? paradise mantle? big dumb rocks like gilded lotus and thran dynamo don't seem like they'd fit the cube's gestalt, though if this is wrong please please tell me and i'll try them!

edit: don't try emoticons
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I don't really view mana rocks as an essential part of my design. I run a few, but each one tips the balance towards midrange / control.

For reference, my cube contains:
Mox Diamond
Sphere of the Suns
Coalition Relic
Mind Stone
Coldsteel Heart
Everflowing Chalice
 

CML

Contributor
ah, relic. it proved to be extremely powerful while i used it and kinda annoying to use optimally, have you had a better experience?

mox diamond is an incredible card but i dunno if hitting some land drops isn't just better.

sphere and heart seem a little underpowered to me. stone and chalice are just about right.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Mox Diamond gets a lot of play, particularly out of decks that can benefit from the tempo boost of a 2-mana Turn 1 play. Say, a deck playing super high-impact stuff like Stoneforge and Bitterblossom. It also combines frequently with Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds decks. Often-times you'll be seeing that discarded land again.

Things might be different in your cube, but in mine the fixing from Sphere of the Suns and Coldsteel Heart are still relevant. I also almost never seem to put more than a single charge counter on Everflowing Chalice. Sphere of the Suns is probably the one I personally play the most. Coldsteel Heart is intentionally not very high power, but gets played because of the dearth of artifact ramp.
 

CML

Contributor
right, i agree that mana rocks should be worse than, say, sakura-tribe elder or cultivate. i've had difficulty hitting the right power level, though. i.e. at 2 signets are a little much, coldsteel / sphere aren't quite enough, chalice always taps for 1 like you said; 3 is even more problematic since chromatic lantern, darksteel ingot are bad but relic is just so insane. i should give prismatic lens a go.

i will try mox diamond next week, which means i'll have to toss in loam again and grab a crucible. what do you guys do with all the extra lands? all the modern / legacy options (wasteland lock! seismic assault!) seem difficult to support in singleton (obv chalice of the void on 1 isn't much of a thing either), with the exception of raven's crime. can you suggest what a mox d package should look like for singleton?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I really think Mox Diamond is good enough without interactions, but maybe others can attest otherwise.

Life From the Loam
Fetchlands
Deathrite Shaman
Grim Lavamancer
Crucible of Worlds (Cycling lands)
Cataclysm
Smallpox
(Armageddon)
(Balance)
(Fastbond)
Knight of the Reliquary
Tarmogoyf
Multicolor Aggro in general
Liliana of the Veil
Wild Mongrel

I guess a lot of those are starting to just be Loam interactions. You don't even have to use all the lands for a combo thing, it's just pure card advantage. You'd also be surprised by how often Loam helps you hit your 3rd or 4th land drop.

Mox Diamond is most commonly played in multicolor aggro/tempo decks, followed by Loam/Crucible decks.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
MoxDiamond.dec. Because on your birthday you drink beer, draft 4-color aggro and 3 - 0 (6 - 0).
7ZZpCea.png
 

CML

Contributor
wow, that doesn't look like a loam deck at all! i'll work on fleshing out a theme for it, maybe in conjunction with introducing the utility land draft next week. here's some ideas for card choices, what do you think? (i can further refine it tomorrow)

mox diamond
knight of the reliquary
terravore
life from the loam
crucible of worlds
seismic assault
borborygmos enraged
raven's crime
spitting image
wasteland
volrath's stronghold
academy ruins
gifts ungiven
intuition
exploration
burgeoning
horn of greed
eternal witness
barren moor
forgotten cave
tranquil thicket
nantuko monastery
riftstone portal
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, that's kind of the point. I will run it in decks with few if any interactions. The fixing was very relevant, and Turn 1 Lotus Cobra into Turn 2 Fetchland was pretty strong as well. Basically landing any of our 3 or 4 drops a turn earlier (e.g. Turn 2 Geist, Turn 3 Ajani/Elspeth) was extremely relevant. Turn 2 Edric after a Turn 1 creature regains you any lost card advantage from Mox Diamond immediately.
 

CML

Contributor
next week: trying at least one of the following (or some partially):

LOAM PACKAGE
mox diamond
knight of the reliquary
terravore
life from the loam
crucible of worlds
seismic assault
borborygmos enraged
raven's crime
burgeoning
horn of greed
eternal witness
nantuko monastery

DGM CARDS
mirko vosk
exava
ral zarek
sire of insanity
spike jester
varolz
ruric thar
voice of resurgence
progenitor mimic
rot farm skeleton
zhur-taa druid
pyrewild shaman
renegade krasis
armed // dangerous
down // dirty
blood scrivener
catch // release
savageborn hydra
far // away
flesh // blood
alive // well

TWO DROPS
bant sureblade
esper stormblade
jund hackblade

SAMPLE DECKS FROM YESTERDAY
(let me know what you think!)

UWR Tempo (won a lot)
Swords to Plowshares
Magus of the Scroll
Stromkirk Noble
Grim Lavamancer
Delver of Secrets
Student of Warfare
Riftwing Cloudskate
Stormblood Berserker
Counterspell
Fire // Ice
Izzet Charm
Miscalculation
Absorb
Prison Term
Boros Reckoner
Detention Sphere
Electrolyze
Blast from the Past
Restoration Angel
Angelic Destniy
Fact or Fiction
Armageddon
Glen Elendra Archmage
Assemble the Legion
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Battlefield Forge
Volcanic Island
Shelldock Isle
Celestial Colonnade
Rugged Prairie
8 Basics

BUG Control (Won some)
Preordain
Ponder
Deathrite Shaman
Enclave Cryptologist
Baleful Strix
Bitterblossom
Mana Leak
Sylvan Library
Snapcaster Mage
Complicate
Recoil
Putrefy
Forbidden Alchemy
Intuition
Snuff Out
Cryptic Command
Bloodline Keeper
Damnation
Venser, Shaper Savant
The Mimeoplasm
Sphinx of Uthuun
Engineered Explosives
Repeal
Volrath's Stronghold
Nephalia Drownyard
Bloodstained Mire
Llanowar Wastes
Bayou
Misty Rainforest
Twilight Mire
Tropical Island
Underground Sea
Verdant Catacombs
Creeping Tar Pit
Drowned Catacomb
5 Basics

Jund Midrange (lost a lot)
Firebolt
Llanowar Elves
Despise
Innocent Blood
Mizzium Mortars
Gyre Sage
Terminate
Wall of Roots
Shriekmaw
Rakdos Guildmage
Abrupt Decay
Vampire Nighthawk
Pernicious Deed
Kitchen Finks
Bloodbraid Elf
Creakwood Liege
Bituminous Blast
Primal Command
Sarkhan the Mad
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Earthquake
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Spitting Image
Marsh Flats
Scalding Tarn
Polluted Delta
City of Brass
Raging Ravine
Graven Cairns
Dragonskull Summit
Woodland Cemetery
Blackcleave Cliffs
Blood Crypt
Badlands
6 Basics
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Hey Rob, you listening? We need a deck visualizer program. Drag and drop a list of cards, get a deck image out.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Jund deck (because I'm feeling generous):
Sqh5bjP.jpg


This deck is kind of all over the place. Mana dorks + Pernicious Deed is generally not my preferred play space. The curve is a little atrocious, and it feels like a pile of random cards. Was this drafted at an 8-man table?
 

CML

Contributor
thanks a million jason, very kind of you! (i'm on my mac laptop and too lazy to fire up my damn pc)

a recent problem (probably not worth a thread of its own) i'm having trouble with is this: the mid-range decks are not great. now this is a common enough cube problem as control is often very good and a huntmaster measures up poorly to a frost titan, say.

but! given that i have the world's highest concentration of mana dudes and fixing and aggro decks it surprises me that mid-range can't at least win aggro matchups. i've also included all of the most powerful mid-range cards in magic history, and yet ersatz standard jund (as above) often just loses. (bant does very well, the rest of the decks kinda meh'ish). my guess as to the cause is that "everyone wants mid-range cards" i.e. huntmaster, bloodbraid, olivia, reveillark, glen elendra archmage and friends are good as curve-toppers in aggro and something to do t3-5 in control and ramp, whereas (most of) the good aggro creatures and huge finishers / reanimator targets are not useful to mid-range.

so if the mid-range decks have good mana, good acceleration, high power, and sources of intrinsic card advantage (i.e. they look like standard constructed mid-range), how do i make them more viable?
 

CML

Contributor
next week:

trying (16): helm of possession, sakashima’s student, jund hackblade, bant sureblade, esper stormblade, terravore, knight of the reliquary, life from the loam, seismic assault, burgeoning, horn of greed, ral zarek, mox diamond, crucible of worlds, voice of resurgence, sire of insanity

cuts (16): abyssal persecutor, flayer of the hatebound, golgari thug, hellspark elemental, ink-eyes, servant of oni, talara’s battalion, sublime archangel, sarkhan the mad, liliana vess, domri rade, wheel of fortune, reckless charge, izzet charm, plow under, day of judgment, ponder
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Let's see... that Jund midrange deck is lacking a lot of what I am looking for in a midrange deck. Namely, meat! The best tool of midrange against aggro are meaty 4-drops like Obstinate Baloth and your hated Thrun. I know you don't like Hexproof, but I find Thrun to have an interesting effect on the board. He's beatable, but you have to kind of finesse around him and find ways to cross the finish line. Cards like Thrun are great in midrange against aggro and control.

I also don't find ramp to be super necessary in midrange. Certainly I wouldn't turn away Deathrite Shaman, but I wonder if that deck might want a lower curve and more 3 and 4 drops. Look at the curve. It just looks weak to aggro and control. It's not putting on enough threats, nor is it putting up enough defense. For 1-drops I probably want a Grim Lavamancer type of card more than Llanowar elf. The deck is also a little light on Midrange's greatest tool, 2-for-1's. E.g. look at those 5 drops compared to, say:

Acidic Slime
Thragtusk
Vorapede
Wolfir Silverheart
Bloodgift Demon
Garruk, Primal Hunter

I also really love Abyssal Persecutor in these types of decks, so it's a little curious to see you cutting it.
 

CML

Contributor
jason -- i do think thrun is pretty harmless. given the lack of 'powered' equipment in my cube he might even be not good enough. i can toss him in.

abyssal percy didn't get played enough, though i do love the card and think he's amazing and instinctively want to throw him back in. some of the loam package might be a little ambitious, but i'd like to try it at least once. if nobody plays terravore then there will be no more terravore, but if it turns out to be awesome then boom we've got a huge hilarious lhurgoyf. i'll think about this at the prerelease while trying to trade for stuff like the GW stag-bear and ral "bad ajani" zarek.

so the jund deck does have card advantage (firebolt, mortars, deed, finks, bloodbraid, creakwood, most of the 5 CMC+ spells) and i think i thought it should have been good because of that but! it was bad anyway. why? a lack of resilience in threats, as you suggest? that seems right.

the most important point is that i guess i lied about having "the best midrange creatures." i don't have tusk. i don't even have vorapede. i guess it's worth considering that tusk & its ilk may not be overpowered in cube. (baloth i'm kinda meh on since i've already got loxodon hierarch and loxodon smiter double-teaming his functionalities, but tusk is a far better card anyway.) surely if reveillark is kosher than tusk should be fine too. but then that gets into issues of cmc (5 is already fairly full, ditto 4) and so on. are there any 3's and 4's missing from my list that y'all are fond of?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Cuesbey is down so I'll just make a couple manual suggestions:

Call of the Herd is both good and works with the Loam package.
No Skinrender? Nekrataal?
Fulminator Mage is great anti-control.
Geralf's Messenger has been very good with a high degree of fixing
Kor Sanctifiers has been great

I also don't think Baneslayer is too strong for your cube, but maybe it was problematic?
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I'm gonna echo Jason's suggestions on how to improve midrange. My cube has the opposite problem - midrange, especially Jund, is good right now, and effortlessly so. It's like, they don't even have to try. They can just jam all the four, five, and especially six drops around here.

A Jund deck like the one you showed above could really use a Titan as a finisher, perhaps even two. I've got nothing against Spitting Image, but between you and me, it's no Grave Titan. We find that having a dominating end game makes the ramp spells a lot more palatable. As it is, I really don't like Wall of Roots in the deck above.

Some of the five's in that Jund deck look plain durdly, compared to the efficient one and two drops in the other decks. Bit Blast is fine, but isn't optimal when you're likely to cascade into a low impact two-drop. Primal Command feels like a giant trap. Half the time I cast it, I choose tutor + gain 7, and it's usually a giant waste of tempo. Without any impactful sixes, I'm not sure what Primal Command can really fetch up here. Sarkhan the Mad has very few minions to play with. And so on.

I think Jason's card suggestions are on the money. I'm gonna throw Olivia Voldaren on the pile, too, cause while you mentioned it in your post, I don't see it in your latest list. The Titans are all universally excellent in any midrange deck, but I've removed mine for power concerns, and I assume you've done the same. Phyrexian Rager is useful for us in any midrange or control deck. Consuming Vapors is a little slow, but eating two creatures and gaining a bunch of life helps decks like these stabilize. Chandra Nalaar is the de facto Queen of Midrange.
 

CML

Contributor
jason -- bsa actually wasn't overpowered but i've traded my copy and am too lazy to find another. i do want to try it again, though. i'll also pick up a messenger and a nemesis. re Skinrender & Nekrataal -- black has enough cipt kill a dude already in shriekmaw and bone shredder and it has enough 4's with damnation and friends. fulmy mage is a favorite of mine and is always in (a bit of LD goes a long way, and the LD deck someone drafted for the first time on weds. was hilarious).

sanctifiers seems meh, is it really worth it to include cards like that and nantuko vigilante indrik stomphowler torch fiend etc. when i already have as much high-power utility removal (vindicate, pulse, decay, putrefy, mortify, qpm, wickerbough, etc.) as i do? also, is call of the herd still good enough?

eric -- i broadly agree with your analysis and am going to pick some nits below.

i think spitting image is one of the few six-drops that has the sheer power and resilience of grave titan. ink-eyes is awful though, i put him in as a way to hilariously hose reanimator but the card is just ... bad.

i like primal command, it seems like a strong card to me even if your above scenario does happen a fair amount. having an incidental graveyard hate mode cements its place in my cube.

ugh, i wonder what happened to my olivia?

i rotate titans in and out. primeval is just kinda bad but i like the other four. sun and inferno and frost are almost always in actually -- grave only sometimes, it's the only titan that can really feel unbeatable ("power concerns") because god is he good against removal and threaten effects. (inferno is more unbeatable if he sticks though, and of course sun can get the most value / be the most mechanically interesting while frost is the king of fatty-on-fatty combat)

last week i added more fatties as the mid-range decks wanted curve-toppers and the reanimator decks wanted, well, cards to reanimate. the problem is finding ones that have that right mix of color, versatility, strength, play. white is the queen of these cards, i can effortlessly list admonition angel, adarkar valkyrie, yosei, sun titan, twilight shepherd as great options to say nothing of evergreen fatties angel of serenity and angel of despair.

i've found red has great options at 5 (maybe too many, which is why nalaar though i love her is out!) but for red fatties 6+ our selection sucks. we get hostility, flayer of the hatebound, ancient hellkite, balefire dragon, bogardan hellkite, charmbreaker devils, greater gargadon, hateflayer, moonveil dragon, wort the raidmother, valleymaker, ryusei the falling star ... kinda lame? the options when you add another color are much better (aurelia, broodmother, borborygmos enraged) but still kinda lacking in quantity. i'm leaning towards always including broodmother and borbor in addition to aurelia, are there any others i failed to mention (preferably mono-red) or unfairly dismissed above?
 
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