Card/Deck Control Mirror Matches

[Karn Cuberated]

Good day, amigos!
The first playtest of our cube has shown the problem of boring control mirrors, but up to this moment it wasn't paid to much attention because there were some more important things to work with. During the next several tournaments such matchups took place, too. UR and UW Spells players were dancing for like half an our during each of 3 games, which were very grindy. Sometimes one of the mages would just deck himself.
So, what could you recommend us to do? Maybe, it's not only the problem of the list itself, but also of our playgroup's skill in playing such kind of matches, so, gameplay tips will be appreciated, too.

 

[CaptnIrony]

So, I may be in the minority, but these sound like games I'd enjoy. The time would annoy others though.

I'm curious what people here think mirror matches often look like, what they should look like (there may be multiple good outcomes) and what bad control mirrors look like.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Good day, amigo's!
The first playtest of our cube has shown the problem of boring control mirrors, but up to this moment it wasn't paid to much attention because there were some more important things to work with. During the next several tournaments such matchups took place, too. UR and UW Spells players were dancing for like half an our during each of 3 games, which were very grindy. Sometimes one of the mages would just deck himself.
So, what could you recommend us to do? Maybe, it's not only the problem of the list itself, but also of our playgroup's skill in playing such kind of matches, so, gameplay tips will be appreciated, too.

You have two options:
-Reduce the number of control cards in your cube (or reduce the power level of control cards).
-Give control decks more interesting gameplans/mirror breakers. For example, you could add a big boy like Nezahal, Primal Tide or Pearl Lake Ancient, both of which are control finishers that are good against control. You could also make control decks more interesting. For example, in my cube, many control lists implement some form of "cycling matters" or "graveyard matters" theme into the deck in addition to the normal "counter all your spells kill all your creatures" plan.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

You have two options:
-Reduce the number of control cards in your cube (or reduce the power level of control cards).
-Give control decks more interesting gameplans/mirror breakers. For example, you could add a big boy like Nezahal, Primal Tide or Pearl Lake Ancient, both of which are control finishers that are good against control. You could also make control decks more interesting. For example, in my cube, many control lists implement some form of "cycling matters" or "graveyard matters" theme into the deck in addition to the normal "counter all your spells kill all your creatures" plan.

As for finishers: won't such kind of finishers be embarassing to lose to? They seem to be good in beating not only control decks.
And could you, please, make an example of cycling/graveyard sinegry in your cube?

 

[Tzenmoroth]

I love control mirrors, esp in cube. I like how skill intensive they get. What do your control decks look like? Do they have a ton of card draw? What are their threats/finishers?

I second Pearl Lake Ancient as a sweet finisher. Powerful but super fair.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

As for finishers: won't such kind of finishers be embarassing to lose to? They seem to be good in beating not only control decks.
And could you, please, make an example of cycling/graveyard sinegry in your cube?

There is no shame in losing to a control finisher. They are literally designed to be played in control.

(Also, I forgot to mention Approach of the Second Sun.)


My current list doesn't really reflect what I have on CT, but I have a couple of U/B cycle decks. These are more Midrange/tempo builds, although when I've drafted the deck it's played more like control.

UB Control - japahn's draft of The Trainmaster's Main Cube on 22/08/2018 from CubeTutor.com

UB Madness Tempo from CubeTutor.com

FF7Guru's UB Cycle from CubeTutor.com

 

[japahn]

Can you please post two control decklists as an example? I too enjoy playing control mirrors in my cube, but there are many play patterns that can get repetitive and boring in that matchup.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

UW Spells from CubeTutor.com

+ Sphinx's Revelation and Faith's Fetters, which refused to be uploaded

UR Spells 3 from CubeTutor.com

and Red Sun's Zenith and Starstorm.
This version of UR Spells is the newer one. Some of the previous variants had really much card draw, which we decided to cut off from the cube.

 

[sigh]

90% chance those cards aren't uploading because it's the wrong ' symbol

 

[Onderzeeboot]

90% chance those cards aren't uploading because it's the wrong ' symbol

Yup. Smart quotes caused me so much headaches that I put a solution (for Apple users anyway) in the How to: Card Tooltips, Card Images, and Decklists thread.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Yup. Smart quotes caused me so much headaches that I put a solution (for Apple users anyway) in the How to: Card Tooltips, Card Images, and Decklists thread.

huh. Is that a mobile, desktop or both thing?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

huh. Is that a mobile, desktop or both thing?

I'm guessing it could happen anywhere, as long as your operating system or browser has a way to turn normal quotes into "smart" quotes (I prefer to call them "pain in the ass" quotes).

 

[Karn Cuberated]

Can you please post two control decklists as an example? I too enjoy playing control mirrors in my cube, but there are many play patterns that can get repetitive and boring in that matchup.

So, returning back to the decks, what do you, guys, think of that?)

 

[Tzenmoroth]

My gut tells me that those control decks lack sufficient finishers for the level of removal they're up against. Inferno titan and sunblast both just kind of kill things, then eat a single kill spell and die, which is what makes them weak finishers. With the removal being so strong and plentiful, I would be looking for harder to answer threats during the draft like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Prognostic Sphinx, Aetherling, Dragonlord Ojutai, Keranos, God of Storms, the aforementioned Pearl Lake Ancient etc.

I have no idea which of those fit your environment better, but in general its a matter of making the threats and the removal "fit" each other, so that the threats aren't unanswerable (much more common problem) or just always getting destroyed. Control decks usually look at get 2 or 3 finishers which should be challenging to deal with, capable of closing the game in a couple of turns and will outright destroy an opponent who has run out of gas. Inferno titan mostly fits that bill but falls super short vs removal, which imo makes it more appealing to the midrange/aggro player.

 

[japahn]

If for every threat a deck has, the other has an answer ready, then the game will be a long slog towards someone running out of gas. With both deck being able to draw more gas but neither able to apply enough pressure to seal the game, the slog will be even longer.

Ideas that help:
1. Incentivize control to have a board state. Practice control by deploying blockers and not just removal. Have your win condition be a time ticking bomb or a combo. Young Pyromancer and Shrine of Loyal Legions are good there. Gelectrode, Icy Manipulator, Legacy's Allure are other examples.
2. Power down card draw and card advantage in general. Decks are supposed to run out of resources. It is part of the game to use them well. Card draw that requires little risk like Glimmer of Genius, Thirst for Knowledge and Ancestral Visions should not be plentiful.
3. Play more interesting and unique cards rather than generic counterspells and removal. When answers are all similar, the play pattern is repetitive. Have your cards be more awkward and require more effort and investment to get their full potential. Examples are Goblin Sharpshooter, Mangara of Corondor and Kiku, Night's Flower.

 

[sigh]

everything japahn is saying, especially the card draw imo. I think this is the primary focal point of "control mirrors". When both decks can just... keep running at full power right up to decking, they will just butt heads.

Thinking about things like:


Or cards that give you an option of resources:

 

[Karn Cuberated]

Finally, we've done a couple of tests. More potent finishers have really changed situation for the better, but we're still trying to choose the ones which fit our environment the most. Trimming the CA also helped, however, we're still thinking whether or not we should reduce its power a little bit more. Thank you, guys! We'll inform you about our further results.

 

[Velrun]

This is why this forum exists! At least one of the reasons.

Which card draw cards did you cut?

Which threats did you add?

 

[Karn Cuberated]

In fact, we haven’t done many actual cuts, however, we have some more ideas. So far we replaced Enclave Cryptologist with Pearl Lake Ancient. Now we're also planning to test Nezahal. Standard gets its own small corner in our Modern cube

Also, we’re looking for an artifact to replace Isochron Scepter with (it happened to be a great source of CA; during one of the tournaments UW Spells deck used it to replicate Raise the Alarm multiple times; it exhausted both players).
I’m tempted to try out Elesh Norn, but, I guess, she can be brutally abused by token decks (in fact, not only by this archetype). She's not that difficult to get done with, if you have a correct spell, but she may act as a wrath and a one-turn anthem. Many people recommend Sun Titan as a white finisher, but it doesn’t seem to be that unstoppable. Maybe, it’s a good idea to put 2 finishers into blue section instead of spreading them across several colours?

Should we cut sth for Dig Through Time to give a control deck more chances to catch a finisher?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

What's the power level of your cube? In my experience Elesh Norn juts shuts the game off against any smaller creature based decks like aggro, so I've had a really feel bad experience with that card.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

What's the power level of your cube? In my experience Elesh Norn juts shuts the game off against any smaller creature based decks like aggro, so I've had a really feel bad experience with that card.

I think, our power level is pretty high, but it's limited with the Modern boundaries, and our list doesn't have any of the "Power 9"-cards (except JTMS - if you consider him to be one of them, - which is now being tested).

 

[shamizy]

Nah, Jace isn't quite on that level of degeneracy, though he is quite powerful on his own. It really depends upon your environmental constraints however. If your aggressive decks have enough reach to actively pressure a card like Jace, then he can be contained. Where he'd really shine is in any grindy attrition-y type game where he'll just take you from parity or being slightly ahead all the way to the top.

I would strongly advise against the inclusion of Elesh Norn. If you have decks that can get to 7 mana consistently, it's such a beating to go up against. Your 1/1 creatures trade for their 5/5 creatures. Almost nothing is going to be able to get through that 4/7 body in combat. I don't feel like she's necessarily a control finisher, I'd probably play her in any white deck I construct that isn't leaning towards being aggressive.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I would strongly advise against the inclusion of Elesh Norn. If you have decks that can get to 7 mana consistently, it's such a beating to go up against. Your 1/1 creatures trade for their 5/5 creatures. Almost nothing is going to be able to get through that 4/7 body in combat. I don't feel like she's necessarily a control finisher, I'd probably play her in any white deck I construct that isn't leaning towards being aggressive.

I think this is an excellent point, and one that's been made on this board previously, that there are card that seem like control finishers only in that they are finishers that you can play in a control deck. The realisation here, I think, is that those finishers really go in any slower deck (i.e anything not aggro) and so doesn't actually incentivise control in particular.

It could be better to limit 'control finisher' to simply refer to finishers that only go into control decks, such as Approach of the Second Sun or Debtors' Knell. Going by that definition, there's much fewer cards to choose from, but I think it helps get around the trap of having control end up as a sort of midrange deck that plays blue.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

Nah, Jace isn't quite on that level of degeneracy, though he is quite powerful on his own. It really depends upon your environmental constraints however. If your aggressive decks have enough reach to actively pressure a card like Jace, then he can be contained. Where he'd really shine is in any grindy attrition-y type game where he'll just take you from parity or being slightly ahead all the way to the top.

In our cube aggro decks happend to be really good at hosing planeswalkers, so, in our environment Jace seems to be a "healthy" card

 

[Karn Cuberated]

I think this is an excellent point, and one that's been made on this board previously, that there are card that seem like control finishers only in that they are finishers that you can play in a control deck. The realisation here, I think, is that those finishers really go in any slower deck (i.e anything not aggro) and so doesn't actually incentivise control in particular.

It could be better to limit 'control finisher' to simply refer to finishers that only go into control decks, such as Approach of the Second Sun or Debtor's Knell. Going by that definition, there's much fewer cards to choose from, but I think it helps get around the trap of having control end up as a sort of midrange deck that plays blue.

Yeah, the feeling you and shamizy described, when a card seems to be so "good-stuffy" that it simply breakes the boundaries of being a strictly control finisher, is familiar to me.
I have already thought of trying out Debtor's Knell, but doesn't it rely too much on graveyards to be powerful enough for closing games out? Maybe, when played against a midrange deck, it can bring back some valuable cards, but what about aggro?