Card/Deck Creatures With Neutral Card Economy

Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Guys, I'm on a super weird search. I'm looking for creatures with neutral card economy values, by that I mean they either draw a card or take a card upon ETBing. The reason I'm looking for them is that they are great "fodder" creatures that can be tossed away for trades or used to gum up a board, forcing an opponent to play into a sweeper, and have it still be card advantage. It also gives you all sorts of ways to milk them for card advantage, use for sac. fodder, or value reanimation.

The list is pretty huge, and I am excluding cards that require conditions like pit keeper or bone shredder. I started off at 3cc equal or lower, but would be interested in higher CC cards too, especially for reanimation targets.





Looking at the cards laid out like this has me wondering if I shouldn't be rethinking my green, that civic wayfinder effects might be more fun than regular elves, as they fill a ramp function, while also being useful bodies for all sorts of interesting sub-interactions. They would have more of a role in the G/B midrange/control decks I was talking about before as well.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

I interpret "card neutral" as not generating advantage. But I don't want to get hung up on syntax. Only thing I would caution though is that these cards are often classic good stuff enablers since they are good in everything. This is one of those cases I think where you may go in wanting to push pod or something and it just winds up making do-nothing durdle decks better.

With that said, your list looks pretty good. If I have time later I'll check my spreadsheet that I keep. I did a similar exercise awhile back.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, I'm not really sure if the terms I'm using express what I want, but basically I am looking for cards that have already paid for themselves as far as card economy is concerned. This includes traditional cantrip creatures like elvish visionary, but is more expansive and includes cards that force discard, like ravenous rats. The point is you can just toss them away without it incurring card disadvantage, or you can try to milk them for card advantage by setting up additional trades with them.

Somehow I forgot mogg war marshal in the above list, ugh.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm trying to move away from the conditional cards, and find cards that you can simply cast and are card neutral. The cantripping ones are obvious and easy to search for, but some of the other mechanics are less obvious: discard when ETB, tutor on ETB, exile and cast, reveal top X cards and so forth. I was wondering if this were any such mechanics that I had missed, and at different mana points.

This could nominally include creatures that tutor into play or produce tokens ETB, the issue with those cards however is that they aren't wrath proof. I'm not sure where death triggers should fit in, or if they should.

Woodland bellower, for example, could be a nice inclusion along with pelakka wurm, as ramp or reanimation targets that justify the expenditure of resources needed to ramp or reanimate them via their ability to recoup that value upon casting, rather than justifying it by indestructibility or protection.
 
kevin

kevin

I've always thought that Elvish visionary fundamentally sucked -- two mana for a re-draw and a 1/1 speedbump not good enough for even lower power cube settings

It's certainly fine in normal booster drafts and can be exploited in constructed settings... But why is this a card I'd ever want to sleeve up, let alone draft?

(Genuine question, open to be convinced of its merits here)
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
To me, Elvish Visionary is almost purely a combo card - it doesn't do a whole lot in aggro, control, or midrange. It obviously does work in Elves! decks in various formats, of which the extended version that LSV won a pro tour with is the most well known, and it was also a key cog in the Kozilek's Predator / Overrun midrange-combo deck of early Zendikar standard. I've cubed Visionary here and there, especially when I was trying to recreate that standard deck in my metagame, and while it ultimately didn't pan out, you could certainly do worse if you're trying to enable creature-based shenanigans in green that would have a use for a warm 1/1 body.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Eric Chan said:
To me, Elvish Visionary is almost purely a combo card - it doesn't do a whole lot in aggro, combo, or midrange. It obviously does work in Elves! decks in various formats, of which the extended version that LSV won a pro tour with is the most well known, and it was also a key cog in the Kozilek's Predator / Overrun midrange-combo deck of early Zendikar standard. I've cubed Visionary here and there, especially when I was trying to recreate that standard deck in my metagame, and while it ultimately didn't pan out, you could certainly do worse if you're trying to enable creature-based shenanigans in green that would have a use for a warm 1/1 body.
Click to expand...

G1, Gain 3-5 Life, draw a card.
I much prefer nest invader for the shenenigans you describe :p
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, its the creature type that makes elvish visionary good, combined with the redraw. I don't even run it in the penny cube. If it were a 2/2, however, I would run it in a heartbeat.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats way to expensive, but a cute design. I didn't even know the card existed.

I'm thinking more a 2/2 for 2 with cantrip effect attached.

Of course, than again, a lot of people here like coiling oracle, so maybe the 1/1 body isn't as bad as i'm making it out to be?
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Grillo_Parlante said:
Thats way to expensive, but a cute design. I didn't even know the card existed.

I'm thinking more a 2/2 for 2 with cantrip effect attached.

Of course, than again, a lot of people here like coiling oracle, so maybe the 1/1 body isn't as bad as i'm making it out to be?
Click to expand...

Everyone I've ever talked to about coiling oracle says it's good because it pitches to force of will, so...
Literal Elvish Visionary with +1/+1 seems a bit good. I've got a 2/1 that draws when it dies in my cube, and he's been solid enough I think getting the card up front and another toughness would be a bit much, even if it's no bob/snapcaster/goyf etc

Also

If it really was the creature type on striped bears holding you back...
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Chris Taylor said:
Literal Elvish Visionary with +1/+1 seems a bit good. I've got a 2/1 that draws when it dies in my cube, and he's been solid enough I think getting the card up front and another toughness would be a bit much, even if it's no bob/snapcaster/goyf etc
Click to expand...

How about as a 2/1? The important thing is that it has the extra power to actually trade with things consistantly.

I really like phyrexian rager, but that card isn't really cubeable for most people.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Knight of the White Orchid sucks in my experience. It just looks like it should be good.

The problem I found is the ability only triggers conditionally and they are all sort of bogus scenarios (not things you should be building your deck around).
1. You fell behind on lands due to hosing or other undesirable scenario (i.e. you didn't kill your opponent early and now it's late game with your opponent on a billion lands). You are probably losing if this happens and a 2/2 FS with land attached is unlikely to save you.
2. You're on the draw and decided to cast a 2 drop on T3. Fine I suppose for the free land/ramp, but also not really what I want to be doing in white weenie. What is my hard WW deck ramping into that wants a 2/2 FS conditional wood elf?

All other times, it's a 2/2 FS for WW.
 
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