[Design/Construction] Rebuilding my 360...

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I agree on the blink thing, I didn't think of that :p Kor skyfisher never pulled it's weight for me. Much like the ninjas, it took too much tempo to replay whatever got bounced, so he got the axe.

Eric: Daring Skyjek lives though. Marauders always dies. It can't team up with dudes and hold off a 4/4 because they'll wait, it gives them time to react unlike the other ball lightning guys, and while I'll admit he is possibly the worst thing to burn a vapor snag on, I'm not buying it :p

Part of the problem is that most of my creature decks are about as hand vomity as RDW is in most cubes: Keldon Marauders can't really take advantage of an opponent stumbling because everyone's curve is so low they always have something to play.
 

Laz

Developer
Hmm... I do have a lot of Red 2-drops (I think it is the pair of Reckless Revelers that push it over the top though). I think I will keep Keldon Marauders, and probably take out Stormblood Berzerker. This lets me slot in Young Pyromancer and feel reasonably ok about the section.

On what Jonas mentioned about Keldon becoming a monster if you have a way to flicker/blink him, how about this three card section that supports that strategy:

Stonecloaker is already in, and all three are pretty solid beaters.
 

Laz

Developer
Ok, on to aggro curve-topping...

Red 3-drops have a reputation for being terrible. I guess we just take the best of a bad bunch:

Haven't tested our latest red mythic, looks pretty solid, and I have added a fair bevy of Equipment which helps him. Pyreheart wolf lets the team get in, Iguanar is wrath protection, Phoenix is all around goodness.

The hotly contested 4-drop slot...

Hellrider does his 'swarms win the game now' impression, FTK is still awesome, and can be played in a lot of different types of decks which feature Red. I have a soft spot for Avalanche Riders, but I feel someone should volunteer to talk me out of it.

Above 4?
Well, I love Zealous Conscripts and Greater Gargadon, but those don't feel dragon-y enough for Cube... Any one have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I would love to sneak in a control-ish finisher here if anyone can think of one (that isn't Inferno Titan...)
 

Laz

Developer
Bleh. This Red section just looks so generic.

What if we forget everything we have done thus far in Red?



I fear this route is lacking a little in modularity. Sure, Tuktuk might be an awesome 3 for Birthing Pod, and there is some cross over with all of the sac things and what Black is doing with Gravecrawler.deck, but do other decks want War Marshal? I mean, it makes a whole bunch of blockers for red-oriented control?
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor

Laz

Developer
Now I have spent my time stewing over my plan of just trying to jam solid aggro cards, and following some great discussion in the main forum, I think there I am probably confident enough to attempt to root sacrifice/tokens in red. Instead of simply discussing only Red cards, this needs to be layered across colours to take advantage of these themes, to sow the seed of these in-draft and in-game interactions.

Lets start with the core of this, Red tokens. Red is actually very few decent token cards at lower CMCs. There is a whole glut of average ones at 4/5 CMC, but that is too high to really assist aggressive decks, since despite this skew, I still want Red to be a solidly aggressive colour. The token cards I am going with are:

While I was cautioned about double War Marshal earlier, the lack of other reasonable options have led me to at least want to test running two of them. I feel these cards are reasonably universal, with Pyromancer being a Human, as well as a solid player in a spell-value deck, and War Marshal being a very reasonable roadblock for more control-oriented decks. Note to self: ensure sufficient density of spells for Pyromancer...
I can branch the token production into the gold section with a solid card like Huntmaster, and potentially a not-so-solid card like Sunhome Guildmage (Thoughts? Worth a shot?).

Supplementing tokens in Red is a little difficult, but there are a few cards which benefit from attacking with lots of creatures.

Curse of Stalked Prey is an interesting card which comes on line early and could get out of hand, it is not as potent as Curse of Predation, but might be worth considering. I have already stated that I am favouring artifacts over enchantments in this cube, so both might sit on the sideline for now.

Supplementing tokens (note that where I keep saying tokens, I probably mean 'numerous small creatures') in other colours is another component of making Red more token heavy, as adequate fixing makes 'the mono-red deck' way less of a thing than typical cubes.
White probably has the most native support for mass-creatures (it is kind of a typically white thing), with Daring Skyjek and Accorder Paladin just in the very playable 2-drops. Hero of Bladehold and Sublime Archangel top out this kind of strategy in a very powerful way. Seeding these cards (which I was probably planning on playing anyway), creates a nice natural crossover.
The crossover into Green is more difficult to achieve. There are a number of Overrun effect which benefit from random creatures lying around, but are the sort of mid-rangey/rampy decks that play cards like Garruk Wildspeaker going to want Young Pyromancer or Mogg War Marshal? There are some battles which are probably not worth trying to win.
Blue has Opposition. I feel very little need to be written on this, except when that deck comes together, it is completely insane. The crossover with blue is probably more likely going to be about grinding value out of Young Pyromancer, using tokens are roadblocks, etc. rather than trying to get some odd 'have lots of small creatures' synergies going.
Black gets the sacrifice themes. Don't be greedy.
Contested War Zone into the utility land draft is certainly happening.

The other, and probably far more interesting component of this is the sacrifice theme. This ties in very strongly with some of the graveyard interactions discussed earlier, but also can provide an engine all on its own. While there has been a lot of discussion about sacrifice outlets in the other thread I created (here), I think that I am going to start with the following:

Supplemented by the following off colour cards:

While I did hear the passionate cries of the Mortarpod support group, I think it can stay on the sidelines for now. I want to give Jinxed Idol a shot in its place for now. Maybe if the Venser deck is desperate for blockers/pingers, or Goblin Bombardment becomes too oppressive, it will get the call up. Also, check out the sweet Human tech on Falkenrath Aristocrat! Caldera Hellion is definitely, as Jonas said, a high risk card, but I want to at least test it out.

This sacrifice theme cannot be simply be fed tokens alone, it needs a number of cards which either want to be sac'd or don't care about being sacrificed to function. Luckily, Red has quite a few reasonable suicidal creatures.

These complement the Perilous Myr and Epochracite which were already added as part of the Tinker package (cross-archetypal synergies, so exciting!). In addition, thanks to CML, I can probably add Sprouting Thrinax to the list.
In addition there are a number of cards which get better when you can kill creatures easily.

Sacrifice themes carry over to Black incredibly obviously, but don't really play particularly nicely with other colours. White can feed tokens to sacrifice outlets reasonably easily, but again, there is little interplay with Green and Blue. Perhaps I should take a leaf from Jason's book and bring Diregraf Captain along to the party. Luckily most of these cards are pretty solid on their own, in multiple types of decks and only the sacrifice outlets are particularly parasitic. Goblin Sharpshooter might be a little weak, but I have never played it, and it seems like such a fun card that I want to find an environment where I can see if that fun is a real thing.

There is definitely still some space in Red after this (especially for non-creatures), but I feel the core is so much better now than just running a whole bunch of generally strong if uninteresting one and two drops.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Some other tokencentric/sacrifice cards to maybe keep on the radar



And than you might want some pingers to keep the tokens from slowing down games; some of which double as sac. targets and sac. outlets.

 

Laz

Developer
I filled in the rest of the Red and White curves. I do have a bit of an awkward issue where I have a whole lot of White three-drops...


I think that each have their place and are interesting enough to justify their inclusion. Doubling up on Blade Splicer is because it is a card that interacts positively with Blink, Sacrifice and Artifact themes. That is too much cross synergy to ignore on a creature which is good in both aggressive and defensive decks.

The White top-end is kind of light, with just the following:
- Karmic Guide
- Reveillark
- Sun Titan
- Angel of Serenity

They all have a kind of graveyard-y theme, and allow for some fun shenanigans. There might be a shortage of reanimation targets here, which is something I will need to keep in mind, since White has all of the reanimation spells...

Red top-end is even more sparse, with just FTK and Crater Hellion as control-oriented top-end creatures (I decided to run Crater Hellion over Caldera Hellion... sorry Team Hellion, I will put Hellion Crucible in the utility land draft as penance).

I am not sure how to proceed forward. I have a lot of ideas in my head, and they are all kind of related.
They include:
- Blocking out the rest of Red
- Blocking out creatures in other colours (specifically Black and Green)
- Working out what removal looks like more clearly
- Trying to implement a 'Brainstorm is awesome' theme

Given it took me 3 days to get around to writing this brief update, who knows where we will go from here...
 

Laz

Developer
Black is pretty easy to supplement, as I actually have some idea how I want Black to be playing. Black is a supplementary aggro colour in this cube, and secondly, Black is designed around attrition.

Supplementing aggro is pretty straightforward (given there are already 4 gravecrawlers (although I hear 3 is the sweet spot) and 2 Bloodghasts, it doesn't need much more):


Lots of these guys are doing double duty, Oona's Prowler is not only a 3-power flier, but graveyard enabler. Fleshbag Marauder is likewise often a poor man's Edict. Note Mesmeric Fiend. I am emphasising cards with the older templating, which provides the amusable timing window, especially when combined with the sacrifice theme. It was the reason for choosing Fiend Hunter over Banisher Priest, and Oblivion Ring over Banishing Light (ok, asides from better artwork).

Blacks also needs to emphasis some slower-grindy cards.


I love Disciple of Bolas so much. Ok, I love drawing cards and sacrificing recurring creatures so much... Geralf's 'Why can't Geralf just send a damn text?!' Messenger is kind of aggro, kind of grindy value guy, all BBB. I can't imagine taking him out, despite the mana cost. Podding into him is just too amazing, and playing him with sweet fixing feels just as good. Falkenrath Noble is Blood Artist number two, but I have found having two of those little two mana blighters is just too good. Nekrataal is actually a new one for me (over Skinrender), but I wanted to push the Humans a little more than the Zombies this time around. Undead Gladiator comes in to fill the Zombie void, and is the rare recurring Zombie that can actually block! Plus, he acts as a very slow looter in the late game if you really need...
Braids is an option here, but I don't know how comfortable I am with that archetype. I would appreciate other's thoughts here if they have any.

Black still needs some high-end stuff. I suspect I will go with Massacre Wurm and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (because apparently you don't get to splash for black finishers...), but I probably need some more big and scary. I actually kind of like Sheoldred...

Also, don't worry, I haven't forgotten Shriekmaw...

Green probably should come next, but I honestly have no idea what to do for it. I simply don't play green outside of splashing the odd Rancor, Podding a whole lot of mana elves, or reanimating Terastadon... What is fun about Green? I might have to check out the 'favourite Green cards' thread (which has become a flavour-text pun thread)...
 

Laz

Developer
The issue is less that I don't know how to support the rest of the themes (aside: Brindle Shoat is a card?! That is awesome!), and more that I am basically the worst Green mage ever. I love every other colour, I just don't know how to draft Green. This puts me in a position where I can add a whole lot of things with no idea if the cards are going to be fun to draft and/or play. I mean, I get that something like Polukranos is a strong card that does things, it just doesn't excite me.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Green is pretty good at supporting the token theme with token producers and overrun effects. It's also the natural color to support ramp and 5-color goodies strategies.
 
Yeah, green is the support color for everything. And it does it without being splashed for removal all the time.
Tokens, Sac, Ramp, Fixing, some aggro dudes, Curse of Predation, Fatties for Reanimator, etc
 

Laz

Developer
Ok... well I know green is going to at least have these:

Human, awesome, etc... I can worry about the rest later (baby steps).

It is also going to have this guy:


I like Predator Ooze, it is like a puzzle you have to solve before it wins the game. Aggro decks can often race it, other decks can just chump block forever, other decks actually have to find a way to get rid of it.
 
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