General Dimir Saboteurs

So I was thinking about themes for my Dimir section in a new cube and started with ninjas, and thought maybe this could be expanded into a theme of "saboteurs" i.e. creatures with an effect when they damage a player. Some examples (including the ninjas):


This could be backed up with either creatures which are hard to block, or temporary unblockability:



Has anyone tried this? On the one hand it does make kind of a satisfying A+B mechanic, which is not exclusive to saboteurs - the things that give unblockable would also work with a Kiln Fiend/Wee Dragonauts/Nivix Cyclops style of deck, and the ninjas are good with rebuying ETB abilities; on the other hand, unblockable is a non-interactive mechanic which can be frustrating for the defending player.
 
I think it can work!

I run a saboteurs theme in Simic, and it's great! It is better supported in Dimir, but I found Simic in need of an identity, and I think it's a pretty fresh archetype in those colors. I think the key is to emphasize it as a card advantage engine, with less emphasis on getting through massive amounts of damage through in a way that can't be interacted with. For that reason, I like the cards that grant unblockable with restrictions on power/toughness like:
,

A few blue/colorless cards I run in this archetype that aren't in your OP:

 
I feel like this is the seminal work on the archetype. Grillo could probably offer a lot of advice and wisdom.

https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/the-penny-pincher-cube-360.700/page-13#post-56141



I really like Cavern Harpy because it sets up Ninjas, allows you to reuse your ninjas, allows you to reuse ETB guys like Bones Shredder when you don't have ninjas, and is a multicolored card that signals what Dimir would want to be doing.

Bounce spells seem pretty good since they're similar to Cavern Harpy in that they allow you to set up ninjas, reuse ETB guys, and clear the way for Ninjas/Saboteurs.

It might be useful to look at pauper delver decks too since a big part of their game plan is to rebuy Faerie Miscreants and Spellstutter Sprites with Ninja of the Deep Hours and then subsequently use removal to clear the way for Ninja.

I think these cards are interesting.



Random Note, I love that Higure can find Nameless Inversion.
 
Reaver was one of the cards I was thinking of with stuff like Shadow Rift, as you need a fairly good payoff to put that card in your deck I think. It's also good for zombies too. It's one that I might try but cut if it's too frustrating.
 

What about these 3?

Kheru Mind-Eater has been a lot of fun in my cube, and wharf infiltrator has been serviceable. Haven't tried Keeper of keys yet though.
 
I do like What's Infiltrator. It's probably my favorite Looter il-Kor variant (I think what I really want is to marry Looter il-Kor with Departed Deckhand). Meanwhile, I don't think Kheru Mind-Eater does enough, and I would rather play Nightveil Specter.

As for Keeper of Eyes, I don't like cards that reference the Monarch in 1v1 Magic, since in 1v1 it becomes a case of whoever is winning the game tends to stay winning the game, which I dislike as opposed to multiplayer where it paints a big target on your head in exchange for advantage, which is actually interesting.
 
Equipment works well with these cards, too. Invisible Stalker was often carrying some weapon of mass destruction back in the day.

There are a at least a couple that are on theme that aren’t as brutal as swords of x and x:
142.jpg


(I don’t know how to escape the apostrophe to make the ci tags happy )
 
I've been working a new cube and started precisely with a broad set of ideas that all center around the possibility of building Dimir Saboteurs/Ninjas. But, since I love Whirler Rogue, I decided that the deck could go the traditional ninja route (with plenty of the cards that people in the thread have already suggested) but also turn into a slightly slower artifact based deck if needed. It can easily switch into other decks: artifact control around Marionette Master, reanimator (making use of the draw-discard effects) or even dipping into red for madness. These are the cards I put together and will form the core of the archetype:

Creatures:
Whirler Rogue: Perfect. It creates artifacts, has a use for artifacts, provides evasion for saboteurs and evasive creatures for equipments/ninjas. If only all cards were like this.
Lumengrid Sentinel: Hits some of the notes: has evasion and can clear the way for attackers.
Silas Renn, Seeker Adept: If you're highly comited, you might start to prioritise artifacts not strictly related to the theme. Or just recycle Vault Skirge, Spined Thopter and Spellbombs...

Artifacts: The thing that can make this work is the availability of cheap artifact and equipments that are already part of the traditional archetype. The equipments are also incredibly synergistic with Whirler Rogue.:
Bloodforged Battle-Axe: Creates more artifacts.
Prying Blade: See above.
Skeleton Key, Mask of Riddles, Mask of Memory, Key to the City: Cheap artifacts that favour the theme. The neutrality of these cards in the archetype is what allows you to either draft the traditional deck or, if you find yourself getting most of the artifacts, take some of the artifact themed creatures as well.
Vault Skirge and Spined Thopter: Artifacts with evasion.
Bident of Thassa: Also an artifact.
Aether Spellbomb, Flight Spellbomb: One example of the type of artifact that works perfectly with the broader theme and gets more powerful with the creatures above.

Others:
Depths of Desire: Another example of a versatile effect that most blue decks would want but works particularly well in Saboteurs. Also fixes mana. Temporal Machinations is narrower but still useful. (Also Contract Killing if you go with the slower version)
Ongoing Investigation: A slower card for the slower deck. Clue tokens work with cards such as Marionette Master, and treasure tokens make the green ability accessible enough that it could theoretically be used to stabilise the game.

So the point is to subtly encourage not the artifact theme but the original Saboteur theme. However, when any of the creatures appear in the pack, they might be not only much more interesting than the other possibilities, but also be able to rescue a deck that might be competing with the better, purer saboteur/ninja deck already drafted at the table. Anyways it still lets you pickup some of the key payoff cards for the original archetype, like the more expensive ninjas.

Switching into reanimator or even artifact control (supported by early tempo plays) is then possible and easy. The obvious payoff for switching would be something like Marionette Master, which is not only a good reanimation target but also a nice way to end the game when you have plenty of little artifacts like Clues, Treasures or Spellbombs lying around. Besides that the efficient and small looters can also support a madness theme, in either red or green or both.
 
The thing that bugs me about Lu Xun is that he basically just hangs around until the opponent has a removal spell. I will always favour conditional - or circumstantial - unblockability, but even in the case of Looter il-Kor the ability is about filtering and not just card drawing. You need something else, other cards or an engine, to turn it into something purely positive. Thieving Magpie is also different because Flying is deeply more interactive than Horsemanship. If you're having troubles against flying there's always the possibility of sideboarding.

Lu Xun, on the other hand, is always the guy that'll activate your ninjas, you'll always want to put equipments and auras on him and your opponent will never be able to stop it until they find removal. It just demands very little of either the game or the player.
 
The thing that bugs me about Lu Xun is that he basically just hangs around until the opponent has a removal spell. I will always favour conditional - or circumstantial - unblockability, but even in the case of Looter il-Kor the ability is about filtering and not just card drawing. You need something else, other cards or an engine, to turn it into something purely positive. Thieving Magpie is also different because Flying is deeply more interactable than Horsemanship. If you're having troubles against flying there's always to possibility of sideboarding.

Lu Xun, on the other hand, is always the guy that'll activate your ninjas, you'll always want to put equipments and auras on him and your opponent will never be able to stop it until they find removal. It just demands very little of either the game or the player.

I understand why you have this rationalization against Lu Xun, but I don't really agree with it. It's no Invisible Stalker or True-Name Nemesis in terms of interactivity. A 1/3 body for 4 mana is almost never difficult to deal with. It has to stick around for 4 turns just to equal the value of a Concentrate. As a ninjitsu target, it's super clunky at 4 cmc.

Sometimes I find that tendencies of analyzing interactivity can veer towards a hypersensitivity, and can devalue a variety in game dynamics. There's a lot of play value generated by threats that have inevitability, that are difficult to deal with, that have the capacity to take a game over, and Lu Xun is a pretty innocuous example of that....if you can even consider it as such...I probably wouldn't.

For the record, I don't like Lu Xun. I ran it in my peasant cube. It was pretty underpowered, but serviceable. These days, I wouldn't run it in peasant just because of the Horsemanship keyword. Formats with any emphasis on tempo should have no issues with it in terms of power afaic.
 
You know what, this is precisely why you should talk to people. After some auto analysis, I concluded that my reaction derived mostly from seeing the word Horsemanship! In my mind I just threw it into a mental drawer together with Invisible Stalker. But you are absolutely correct. I still wouldn't put it in my cube (simply because of the keyword) but not because of power-level related reasons. Thanks.
 
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