General Do finishers have to be so boring?

Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
This is a callback to our first ever Riptide thread, back in the Google group era:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/riptide-laboratory/FAmmz5r5d50

Prompted by the discussion in the three-color card thread:


Diakonov said:
I just find Karn to be a slow and tedious way to win a game. God forbid that you use his ultimate.
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My original question was:
This is pretty much just a risk/reward question. Do you consider "win the game" finishers like Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine to be an appropriate prize for getting to 6 mana? If you included a lower power card would players even put them in their deck given the speed of, say, my cube? Are these cards a necessary evil?
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To update it: are there finishers that are sufficiently interesting to play (with and against), yest still properly incentivize players to cast expensive spells in a high power environment?

It's been more than 2 years since that thread was made. How have finishers changed in the meantime?
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I don't have much experience with high power environments, but I'ld imagine there are plenty of six+ mana finishers that are actually interesting enough to play in such an environment, without being the auto-picks like Grave Titan and Wurmcoil are. These come to mind:



Are a few of the interesting ones (depending on your definition of interesting of course)?
 
CML

CML

Contributor
the most fun finishers are locks. kinda counterintuitive because in constructed fuck losing to that shit! but in cube, hey, you did it. here are some fun wincons!



the ULD is great!

beyond that i dunno! you have to have some finishers otherwise the control decks will just suck. i have favorite fatties too but locks might be a more interesting direction in which to take this thread. fwiw the Sidisi deck didn't really employ a "finisher" so much as overwhelming value after stabilizing somehow (Hornet Queen, Den Protector, Deathmist, Sidisi, Sidisi, Whip etc.) and that could be another direction
 
shamizy

shamizy

If we're going by 6+ drops, then recently we've gotten:



All of them are pretty solid, way better design than something like Wurmcoil or the more oppressive titans.

The real improvement in Cube imo has been the increase in number of quality 4/5 drops who can act as pseudo finishers at the top of good curves. And the best part is that most of them actually have play to them, not just some dumb freight train like a Hero of Bladehold.

 
Diakonov

Diakonov

Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
In my lower powered environment, I like Desecration Demon for that same purpose. He has a built-in minigame that gives the opponent more decisions than "removal or no?". Though I suppose he's still more of an efficient midrange beater than a true finisher.

shamizy's post above hits the nail on the head. I'm finding that four and five mana cards - and, on occasion, even three-mana cards - are doing a great job as finishers lately, as they seem to get more and more efficient every set. At this point, my overall cube curve is probably the lowest it's ever been, because there's no need to necessarily ramp up to six or seven mana to deploy a game winning threat anymore. Just last week, I had a helluva time dealing with my opponent's beefy midsized threats:



It used to be that six mana was the magic number before you could power out a credible board stabilizer, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. There are a lot more viable options spread out across the spectrum, and they tend to be less blunt instruments of destruction and instead more subtle, synergy-friendly cards. Personally, I'm happy that Wizards has scaled back from Baneslayers and Titans as the benchmark for power, and instead are setting the mark where the Dragonlords are.
 
safra

safra

vennythekid said:
I'm on the fence about Grave Titan in my cube as well. How do you guys feel about Tasigur?
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Tasigur rules. I'm running all five of the tribrid khans and he's tied with Alesha in terms of impact. Basically a perfect card imo. Not really a six, though, usually 2-4..

If you want a Grave Titan replacement, I've had a great time with Massacre Wurm. Remember that the second ability is static and always triggers!
 
shamizy

shamizy

vennythekid said:
I'm on the fence about Grave Titan in my cube as well. How do you guys feel about Tasigur?
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He's the best. I've usually casted him at 4, once got him out at 2 which was pretty nutty. From then one he's basically a Goyf that can regrow a card for you with each activation. He's probably staying in my Cube forever.

I'd ditch Grave Titan and not look back. It's just too much value. I got rid of it a while back and I haven't regretted it at all. Cast it on curve, you get 10 power over 3 bodies AND you generate another 2 bodies with each swing. Even if it dies the very next combat, you've pretty much replaced it with 8 more power on board. It's nigh unbeatable barring a timely wrath. Breaks open parity and games devolve from there. Not a fan.
 
shamizy

shamizy

Chris Taylor said:
I like Persecutor a bit more than desecration demon, but my favorite moment with that card was someone feeding it bloodghasts for like 12 turns, then mark of mutiny
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I like the design of the two of them, prefer Persecutor though. It's fun trying to craft the deck in a way that you'd have an out to your own creature. I've had games where I was praying to top deck a kill spell or sac outlet just to win the game. DD is definitely worse if you support decks that can just pop out the bodies via Gravecrawlers, tokens, etc. Percy's trample is also very relevant, and I like that he can go toe-to-toe with all of the new dragons aside from Atarka who just fucks up everyone.

I did one kill a person at FNM with 4 D-Demons on the field after he went off with his Green Devotion deck. That was pretty gross.
 
GenericZero

GenericZero

So here's my questions:

1) Is a 7 mana bomb too much? What about in lower power(let's say morph)cubes?

2) Has anyone tested overseer of the damned and how was it?

3) Derailing question: what are some fair reanimator spells? I feel it has been discussed before but I wanna recap this.
 
yan

yan

thundermaw hellkite has ended many games

its faster than sheoldred i like it
gets completely mopped by baneslayer angel lol

i think reanimate is fine without firestorm / entomb / opressive creature and with a strong removal / control magic / bounce suite
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I have seen Overseer in action exactly one time and it was as glorious as you'ld imagine. The guy still managed to lose one game where he got it our though, so it's certainly fair :)
 
CML

CML

Contributor
I think you want finishers of different "types" that fit in different decks in your Cube. For example drafting AEtherling really lets you skimp on creatures, but is less "powerful" than a "normal" deck with Frost Titan.
 
Tyrole

Tyrole

Finishers also need to be scaled to speed and power level of the cube.

For instance, any of the titans would warp my cube terribly. I'm liking the Souls right now when I need a high-end 6 drop. T-maw was just slightly too fast and strong. Taking him out has actually been one of the better improvements I've made to my environment.
 
Aoret

Aoret

Developer
CML said:
I think you want finishers of different "types" that fit in different decks in your Cube. For example drafting AEtherling really lets you skimp on creatures, but is less "powerful" than a "normal" deck with Frost Titan.
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I'm pretty sure this is right. I'm drawing a complete blank at the moment, but I'd love to get people's thoughts on other finishers that feel like they kinda have a "type". Lately I've been fucking depressed every time I look at Sphinx of Jwar Isle and such.
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

Here's a start. Stuff I have in my cube or have played in other cubes

White:
Hero of Bladehold: low curve Aggro/Weenie alpha striker
Gideon Jura: the most bad-ass plainswalker in the multiverse. Will eat your opponent's attacks for days, enabling alpha strikes or protecting your other planeswalkers/threats. Also a quick, typically hard to kill clock on an empty board
Sun Titan: pod finisher/reccursion is valued. Also good in weenie strategies with a higher curve than is suitable for Hero
Angel of Serenity: control the board/answer threats
Elesh Norn: crush creature decks under your oppressive AOE

Blue:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: "My Life Would Suck Without You"
Frost Titan: a tap out style where the body is relevant and the tapping ability helps push attacker through
Aetherling: a threat light kill-everything style where playing at instant speed might be important. Likely your only threat.
Consecrated Sphinx: 1-for-1 style deck where you plan to win on late game card advantage.
Sphinx of Jwar Isle: a slower but less mana hungry Aetherling

Black:
Grave Titan: Immediate 10 power on board to close games out or to protect your own board. Very quickly takes over a boardstate
Mikeus, the Unhallowed: card advantage finisher for pod/zombie/sacrafice strategies. Turns all your dudes into Vorapedes
Masacre Wurm: closes out games versus aggro strategies, can set up alpha strikes
Sheoldred, the Whispering One: Pox/Attrition strategie' late game closer. All great pod chains end here.
Griselbrand: on-color reanimator target of choice

Red:
Sulfuric Vortex: Once the mono-red player flushes the toilet, there is no escape
Hellrider: For more creature-centric aggro decks that don't have a burn-out finish
Thunermaw Hellkite: evasive, quick clock. Great in big zoo/aggro or as a midrage play
Inferno Titan: for bigger, badder red. Great in ramp as a mid to endgame card as well.
Greater Gargadon: a big body for some of the smaller decks, especially those with sac/Act of Treason themes

Green:
Garruk Wildspeaker: in weenie/zoo decks playing green, Overrun Ult can win games quickly. Especially with Lingering Souls.
Garruk, Primal Hunter: card advantage engine in green that either poops out dudes or draws you more dudes until you win
Thragtusk: finisher if the guy to your right is for sure mono-red
Wolfir Silverheart: makes two huge dudes, can end games quickly or help stall boards
Primeval Titan: the trample can win games on its own. For every other situation, grab yourself a Kessig Wolf-Run
Rampaging Baloths: landfall finisher that goes tall
Avenger of Zendikar: landfall finisher that goes wide

Multicolor:
Geist of Saint Traft: can close games in zoo or Delver very quickly
Sphinx's Revelation: win the card advantage war late, lifegain is valuable if you know the field is aggro-centric
Obzedat, Ghost Council: hard to remove body which can slowly grind out games.
Ajani Vengant: accentates any and all mana issues your opponents have to keep them out of a game. Helps stabalize early as well
Olivia Voldaren: given enough mana, easily wins creature fights. very vunerable to removal
Falkenwrath Aristocrat: quickly end games for B/R sac/zombies decks. Very glass-cannony without proper support
Knight of the Relequary: huge, cheap pseudo-card advantage engine for aggresive decks
Kiora, the Crashing Wave: the subgame of "can she unleash the Kraken?" wins games by exhausting opponents resources, or by unleasing the Kraken
Simic Sky Swallower: massive untouchable ramp/reanimator target
Cruel Ultimatum: cleans up boards, insane card advantage, and a lava axe all in one

Colorless GRBS
Skullclamp: GRBS
Jitte: GRBS
Batterskull: GRBS
Wurmcoil Engine: GRBS

Colorless:
Karn Liberated: giant threat that can pick apart a boardstate and clean up from there. Massive loyalty helps keep him alive long enough to do so.
Myr Battlesphere: provides bodies that roadblock non-evasive attacks. Makes for a quick clock turning sideways too
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth: dedicated ramp game ender. Is Opportunity on a stick, except that stick also wipes your opponents board.

I know this isn't an exhaustive list, but its a start. What am I missing?
 
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