General Does Anyone Actually like Traditional Black Aggro?

[FlowerSunRain]

I'm talking about that deck that runs Carnophage into Sinkhole. Does anyone like that deck? I've cut back on the cards for this deck recently. Sarcomancy is gone, along with Nether Void and Dauthi Slayer. In have come all of the sacrifice/graveyard superfriends. I'm tempted to just finish cutting these out completely. Besides sinkhole, they tend to suck compared to their counterparts in other colors anyway.

I mean, considering this is gravecrawler central, I'm guessing I know the answer. Anyone think there will be any unforeseen consequences in dumping the rest of these dogs?

 

[Jonas]

I love it love it love it. An aggro deck should finish at one life. But I like it more in constructed then cube.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm a big fan of graveyard themes in black. Reanimator is one of my favorite arch types. I dropped all black aggro a long time ago. I think it made black better honestly. I obviously still run gravecrawler because it's stupidly good and works in Pox strategies. My cube doesn't push aggro hard though because my group tends to gravitate toward midrange. So I have traditional aggro limited to just red and white.

 

[CML]

Nah those cards suck and gravecrawler is sweet

 

[Chris Taylor]

There are a few problems with this deck:
1) Nothing in it can block. From Shadow Guys to more traditional gravecrawler style guys, you suck if you are EVER on the back foot.
2) Everything costs you life. Until recently every black aggro creature cost life, so the downside of your isaumaru was free lightning bolts for your opponent.
3) The disruption spells which work well are heavy black and far between (Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Nether Void being the exception)
4) White and Red do this kinda thing better.

The gravecrawler/pox deck is interesting, and shores up a lot of those weaknesses: Very little costs life, you can pick off creatures with the game plan and some creatures do block, the disruption spells become more widely spread, and it attacks from a unique angle red and white do not. (Even if it comes together as a red/black deck most of the time )

 

[James Stevenson]

I had a friend who once said suicide black was his favorite deck to draft. That's partly why I supported it, but it still kinda sucked. I'm much happier to have the gravecrawler stuff, it's much sweeter!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Sweetest card of the new Gravecrawler archetype:


Unique removal that both hardcore aggro and control want? Check and mate.
Last 8-man a player beat a Deathrite Shaman -> T2 Geist of Saint Traft opening via Innocent Blood + Snapcaster Innocent Blood.

 

[ahadabans]

There are a few problems with this deck:
1) Nothing in it can block. From Shadow Guys to more traditional gravecrawler style guys, you suck if you are EVER on the back foot.
2) Everything costs you life. Until recently every black aggro creature cost life, so the downside of your isaumaru was free lightning bolts for your opponent.
3) The disruption spells which work well are heavy black and far between (Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Nether Void being the exception)
4) White and Red do this kinda thing better.

The gravecrawler/pox deck is interesting, and shores up a lot of those weaknesses: Very little costs life, you can pick off creatures with the game plan and some creatures do block, the disruption spells become more widely spread, and it attacks from a unique angle red and white do not. (Even if it comes together as a red/black deck most of the time )

All of this. I really dislike the options we have for traditional black aggro, and I really don't get why people run it in their cube. You can make a comparable list in white and/or red and they will always be better.

Moving black more towards a pox type of strategy feels like a better fit anyway (from a flavor perspective), and it's very competitive when it comes together. I also have a mono black sub theme in my cube as well, as this is sort of a pet arch type for me (though for the record, I have never been able to actually draft it because I never have 8 players).

 

[FlowerSunRain]

All of this. I really dislike the options we have for traditional black aggro, and I really don't get why people run it in their cube. You can make a comparable list in white and/or red and they will always be better.

My problem has been that running a largish cube that is generally underdrafted, my fear has been that without having those crappy black aggro dudes people would attempt to draft aggro decks in red/white and flounder if they didn't have black as a fallback to poach from. Now that I've cut out land and changed draft formats, I don't think this is a big deal anymore. It may have actually never been a big deal, instead being part of the non-existent rashambo boogieman.

Also, I think the power-level of multi-gravecrawler is too much for my design, which is why I don't view it as an option.

 

[DreamPaint]

I think all the traditional black aggressive decks that people tried to make work in their cubes pre-gravecrawler era were all trash. Carnophage, Lacerator, etc. were the laughing stock of the cube until I finally cut them. The gravecrawler configuration seems to shore up a lot of previous weaknesses and is also just more interesting/fun and spawns crazier decks. Sinkhole was never any good for us, although perhaps that was because my black section was just poorly positioned to be taking advantage of it before. I guess I wouldn't mind testing it out again.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I thought red/black aggro that goes Carnophage -> Hymn -> Stone Rain was a pretty good deck.

I assume the that goes Firedrinker Saytr -> Hymn -> Stone Rain will work just as well assuming the mana is there.

 

[Jason Waddell]

The most pleasing feedback I've gotten on the various Gravecrawler archetypes is that they are really challenging to play against. It's like an evolving puzzle you have to solve, but you always have some tools.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Regardless, I don't think that having aggro only represented in two primary colors is ideal for a number of reasons. I have been much more satisfied with aggro and control each spread around the colors, versus other cube configurations where red is virtually 100% aggro and some colors are like, 0% aggro. The archetypes get pretty pigeonholed in said cubes.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I completely agree. Anyone who has said black is shitty in cube was probably running it as a mishmash of random cards, while their red section was 100% aggro (and maybe an Inferno Titan and Wildfire) and their blue section was 100% goodstuff.

 

[Lucre]

I play this deck in a lot of other formats for funzies when I wana buy cards etc.


Horror Tribal
Suicide Black Standard when mirrodin came out. That deck was such a lucky bad idea.
Rakdos Aggro in Kamigawa // Ravnica Standard.
I think I even played Sligh with Black at an extended tournament.

I know life is significantly different than when I used to take part in tribal tournaments but I really recommend anyone who has a reason to play a little tribal pick up a couple copies of Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Flesh Reaver, Mesmeric Fiend, Drinker of Sorrows and Phrexian Negator and as many Mindslicers and Faceless Butchers as you feel is necessary.

It's not like you'll run out of cards with your Phyrexian Rager and your complete disregard for your life total.

 

[Jonas]

I play this deck in a lot of other formats for funzies when I wana buy cards etc.


Horror Tribal
Suicide Black Standard when mirrodin came out. That deck was such a lucky bad idea.
Rakdos Aggro in Kamigawa // Ravnica Standard.
I think I even played Sligh with Black at an extended tournament.

I know life is significantly different than when I used to take part in tribal tournaments but I really recommend anyone who has a reason to play a little tribal pick up a couple copies of Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Flesh Reaver, Mesmeric Fiend, Drinker of Sorrows and Phrexian Negator and as many Mindslicers and Faceless Butchers as you feel is necessary.

It's not like you'll run out of cards with your Phyrexian Rager and your complete disregard for your life total.

So so so much fun. And don't forget about Hidden Horror as well.

 

[ahadabans]

Regardless, I don't think that having aggro only represented in two primary colors is ideal for a number of reasons. I have been much more satisfied with aggro and control each spread around the colors, versus other cube configurations where red is virtually 100% aggro and some colors are like, 0% aggro. The archetypes get pretty pigeonholed in said cubes.

I hear what you are saying on this, but I don't like forcing aggro where it has crap support. Like green aggro. Rancor is awesome. Experiment One is good. What other 1 drops are there that aren't rubbish? (hi Wild Dogs and Jungle Lion you both really suck). And what would the incentive be to running them over mana elves (which just play way more to the strength of the color)? If Wizards wants to start printing really solid two power one drops in green and I like them better than other options, I'll support it in green. But until then, I'm not doing it to meet some artificially manufactured aggro support quota.
The same is true for black for me. I can run garbage like Sarcomancy, or I can use that slot for targeted discard (thoughtseize, et all) or some kind of removal or reanimator support (entomb, unearth). I just don't want to blow precious cube slots on two power one drops that are sub par compared to other offerings (in white and red in particular).

In blue, I do provide a lot of support for tempo decks because there is support in blue for it and it's an exciting and effective arch type (plus it fills part of the aggressive theater void I have).

I guess I just approach it a little more organically. I only run X number of one drops in cube. I just want to pick the ones that do the most for my environment (either by supporting a key arch type, or providing value to a lot of different decks). And however that ends up making the colors look, that's what I go with. For me, it got rid of a lot of the black aggro dudes because they blow and there was just a plethora of other choices that did more for the same cost.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Oh, haven't you heard? Sarcomancy is great for the Devotion theme people are running these days. Lose the creature but keep the mana drop on board. [\sarcasmomancy]

 

[ahadabans]

LOL.