General Does It Takes Two to Tango?

[safra]

this isn't a thread about BFZ's Pumpkin Spice lands, sorry! (b/c if you don't call 'em that, you're a basic, basic, b-word)

RBM's thread about cube size has a little aside in the opening paragraph about duplicates and how many / which ones we run that I think is a really interesting jumping-off point. Selectively breaking the singleton restriction gives real texture to RipLab formats and allows the sculpting of an 'implicit meta' of synergistic decks. Obviously designing not just a limited format but a harmonious balance between decks and the resources they focus on is a lot more time-consuming than copying a Cube list, but I still think there's a ton of reasons to do it.

Here's a couple of questions for you all:

1: How do you meaningfully choose where to break singleton?

2: How many copies of those cards do you run? How big is your cube?

3: How have your drafters, whether regulars or not, reacted to the breaking of the singleton restriction?

4: Which one card should other people add a second copy of to their Cubes, and why?



To answer my own questions,
1: I break singleton on one-drops to break aggro down into recursive, wide or vertical growth strategies (which interplay). I also double up on a few cards to build a format identity: green tutor effects, Inquisition of Kozilek, Brainstorm, Young Pyromancer, and a few cycles of lands.

2: I run two copies of each of my nonsingleton cards in a 360 cube. I've also run, in the past, 3 or 4 Birthing Pods and decided that 2/360 is the saturation I want for these effects. It's possible that I might unbalance that for a single card, like running a bunch of Brainstorms in a larger list, or going all in on a Pod or CoCo format.

3: Most have been fine with it; my playgroup largely aren't Spiky enough to draft a ton of Cubes and so I think they're largely unaware of all the Discourse around the singleton principle. I've done a couple of drafts at the LGS with randos, or with my school's Magic/nerd club (surprisingly decent people) and had to explain my design rationales. I've heard a few dismissive comments, one person said he wasn't interested in drafting a 'custom format pretending to be a Cube' (lol), but even the people who aren't into it are usually ambivalent by the end of the night.

4: I have to say that Collected Company has been amazing here. Your cube's curve is probably already low enough that it works anyway, but the depth of play it's given largely-creature decks is awesome, and the card is very, very fun. All of this comes in a convenient package with no added shuffling, that plays nicely with instant-speed themes in and out of green, is a build-around nobody's tired of yet, and which also ties in with Haste and etb dudes. Go up to two if you're at one and one if you're at zero as long as your cube isn't super dragon-y.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I think a pretty good rule of thumb is to answer the question "Does this card open up room for interesting decks while simultaneously being very unique in the magic pool at large?". The more true it is the more you can justify breaking singleton. See our double fetch experiment or doubling up on Birthing Pod. The card is unique but opens up more decks by being included.

Edit: "Vertical, Horizontal and Recursive" is a super neat trifecta of strategies! I'll steal that wording.

 

[shamizy]

1: How do you meaningfully choose where to break singleton?

If a second copy of card allows for a given archetype to become viable or has an effect that I'd like to see duplicated, I'll gladly break singleton. Most prevalent in my black section with Gravecrawler, Bloodsoaked Champion and Carrion Feeder which is pretty much the recursive black aggro deck. Brainstorm b/c pretty much any blue deck will want to use at least one. Mardu Woe-Reaper and Deathrite Shaman b/c aside from being pieces for decks that would want them (aggro and ramping respectively), they're great graveyard hate. My favorites are Magma Jet and Perilous Myr though. Jet is the perfect burn spell with that scry 2 being relevant in every single deck and Myr is a champ. Oh yeah and fetches and shocks are doubled up where I can (I don't have all the Zen fetches) because good mana = good environment.

2: How many copies of those cards do you run? How big is your cube?

Most of time just 2 of anything I break singleton, though I have 3 Birthing Pods and 4 Brainstorms. My cube is 420, which has been a good size to help push fringier archetypes and keep my drafters from assembling the same decks every single time.

3: How have your drafters, whether regulars or not, reacted to the breaking of the singleton restriction?

Initially they were skeptical, but they quickly saw the benefit after our first draft. They understood that certain archetypes need to double up on certain cards if it was going to be a real deck. The best way I explained it to them was why go with two different cards to fulfill the same role when doubling up on one leads to more interesting play (Gravecrawler for instance). They also love the utility land draft, it's been a huge hit here.

4: Which one card should other people add a second copy of to their Cubes, and why?

Magma Jet, it's the perfect burn spell. Bolt is iconic and ridiculously efficient so I can never double up on that, Lightning Strike is just imitation Bolt. Shocks were never good enough. Burst Lightning was pretty sweet, but not enough to go double up on. Jet, however, is the perfect spell because of the Scry 2. Scry 1 is just a throw-in on most cards and helps a little, Scry 2 is MUCH better. You can fix your draws if you've missed a land by shooting on upkeep, you can set up your next draw by just shooting it at your opponent at EOT, or you can create some zany interactions with top of library manipulation in the middle of combat if you really want. Attack with Monastery Swiftspear, before blocks Jet your guy, Scry away top 2, Brainstorm, do some shit. You take 4?

 

[RavebornMuse]

1: How do you meaningfully choose where to break singleton?
I break singleton for two primary reasons:
1) If it enables a theme/strategy I'm interested in
2) If it seems like the most interesting decision over near-identical/similar-effect options

2: How many copies of those cards do you run? How big is your cube?
My cube is currently trimmed down to 440, though I would like to one day go down to maybe 420.
I currently run the following duplicates:
Champion of the Parish - I had this at 3, but it proved a bit overbearing. 2 looks good so far. It's always a solid pick-up, and it's easy enough to grow him.
Mardu Woe-Reaper - Graveyard hate and incidental life gain are very useful in my format, so this seemed like an easy pick. Relevant typings keep him from feeling one-dimensional.
Ponder - If you're going to have 1-mana cantrips, few feel as great as Ponder, which has so much depth! I like this card a lot.
Condescend - I go back and forth on cutting this card constantly, as it's pretty powerful, but it has a good dial on it, which means it flexes well into the late game, but isn't always going to hit. The Scry 2 is fantastic, though, and well-worth doubling up on.
Counterspell - A solid, efficient counter. The double blue keeps it from being too threatening, and I adore the Gao Yan version from Mercadian Masques.
Remand - Sassy, but not impudent. See a more robust commentary below, on question 4.
Carrion Feeder - Sacrifice shenanigans are fun, but there aren't enough enablers. I wish Feeder had a hot older brother, but this works good.
Bloodghast - I find this card keeps proving itself more and more powerful each draft. I love discarding it or dumping it in the 'yard somehow and then dropping a land to bring it back, no required! Not really a necessary duplicate anymore, but still a fine one.
Monastery Swiftspear - This card tempts me to triplicates, often. A fantastic card that has gallons of play to it, and she interacts so well at most any point in the game! Dropping her onto a tapped-out board, equipping her, or swinging after a burn spell can help steal a close game, or she can combo up huge with some storm-y/cheap spells, which is also hella good. She has SO much play for a 1-drop, and is a human to boot. I live for this card. I'd recommend her to anyone wanting to push spells-matter in their cube.
Firebolt - This card is so elegant, so delightfully good, and so pain-free to double up on. There are a million shock variants, and I can't imagine ever liking one more than this. Sorcery speed 2-damage is a fine deal, very fair, and the flashback gives it more value than I can describe. This is easily a top contender for me on the list of most well-designed cards.
Magma Jet - This card is the bee's knees; scry 2 is fantastic, and 2 damage for 2 mana is a fine deal at instant speed. I love this card.
Volt Charge - This is a new experiment, but we love Proliferate over here, and are overjoyed to be packing a second copy. I expect this to be a delight.
Experiment One - One helped to enable green aggro strategies; two is pure heaven. These have a surprising amount of play to them, and the FNM Promo art is perfectly acceptable (the original art is too hideous to fathom running with for me).
Eternal Witness - I love this gal! She's super cool, and I was really surprised to find myself running two, but, here she is! I love her, and I can't imagine cutting back. She's awesome, nuff said.
Collected Company - So, so good. Thank you forever to safra for showing me the light.
...And double fetches and shocks, because good mana=good games.

I run the following triplicates:
Brainstorm - I could probably run 4 and be happy, but 3 felt right (I think I started at 6; that was crazy). I love this card.
Bloodsoaked Champion - I really like this card, but I think 2 would probably be plenty, and may be a reality at some point. We'll see.
Stromkirk Noble - This is such a fan favourite over here and it's crazy. We both love this card to pieces and evading humans is a real laugh. The art and flavour is really on-point, as well. I can't imagine ever cutting below 2, but that would probably be acceptable, if the time ever came for it.

3: How have your drafters, whether regulars or not, reacted to the breaking of the singleton restriction?
I primarily draft with the person I live with, who doesn't care. We've drafted with two other people a few times (whenever they're in town), and neither cared; they have not been exposed to the Discourse surrounding singleton vs non-singleton. I don't have an LGS because all of them around here are pretty crappy. Tried to get into my uni's Magic scene but it sucked.

4: Which one card should other people add a second copy of to their Cubes, and why?
I would vote CoCo or Magma Jet, actually. Both are phenomenal cards for reasons safra and shamizy have already said. To add something new, I'll go ahead and say Remand; it's a very good card that feels great for the player and not terrible for your opponent. In my quick-paced environ, the tempo you can generate off of Remand is pretty tasty, but it lacks the feel-bads of a straight Counterspell, because, hey, your opponent can always try to cast that spell again. I like these sorts of dial-tuner cards that aren't straight-up "frick u I won", because they add some depth to the format. Your Remand buys you time, precious time, and hopefully helps you dig for an answer. But it doesn't just win you the game; that troublesome Remanded card will be back next turn (or perhaps even the same one)!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

1: How do you meaningfully choose where to break singleton?

I break singleton for effects I want to see more of in the cube, and where the card just feels like there isn't room or a need for improvement over the existing design.

2: How many copies of those cards do you run? How big is your cube?

I run 2 of every duplicate at the moment, but have run 3 (of Brainstorm and trilands) in the past. Birthing Pod is on the eternal shortlist to up to 3. My cube is 450 and runs a ULD.

3: How have your drafters, whether regulars or not, reacted to the breaking of the singleton restriction?

They raised an eyebrow, decided it was still a free draft, and never mentioned it again.

4: Which one card should other people add a second copy of to their Cubes, and why?

Look at this mess of words! And still, it's the perfect reanimation spell! Cheaper options like Reanimate turn reanimator strategies into a filthy combo deck that is hard to beat in a relatively fair environment. More expensive options feel like value plays and take away from the reanimator feel. And on top of the glorious 3 mana in Necromancy's top right corner it hits every graveyard, making it a glorious follow up after Thoughtseize, and it can be used as a combat trick! There is so, so much to like here that I can heartily recommend doubling up on it. Please, you won't be disappointed!

 

[James Stevenson]

For the most I trippled up on aggro 1-drops that supported more interesting decks than generic aggro:

In the old days I ran a singleton bunch of 2-power 1-drops to support aggro, but now my aggro decks have been thought about more as separate, highly synergistic archetypes. The generic 1-drops don't really help (though I still run a few generic beaters).

Tl;dr: cut generic fillers and double up on things that fill that role, and more.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Alright, breakdown time!

1. Champion of the Parish is probably the most fun white one-drop. Looking for incidental humans is like a game within a game, and curving this into one of the custom token makers (because let's face it, Gather the Townsfolk kinda sucks) is Aggro bliss
2. Cloudfin Raptor is the only blue one-drop I've been really happy with, so I just went ahead, doubled up on it, and axed the rest. It's not for every deck, but when it's good (2/3 flying or better for ) it's awesome.
3. Brainstorm is the best cantrip in a fetch environment. Period.
4. Gravecrawler is a pretty well known factor by now on Riptide.
5. Necromancy, the perfect reanimation spell (see above).
6. Young Pyromancer is the iconic cornerstone of the spells matter deck.
7. Eidolon of Blossoms is an important way to get card advantage in the constellation deck, and it also plays nice with Birthing Pod.
8. Birthing Pod; speaking of which, I don't think I need to explain this one.
9. Perilous Myr is as awesome as Shamizy says it is. It's the perfect two-drop for a (tap-out) control deck, and works with artifact and sac engines. Sweet value.
10. Cogwork Doppelganger is a custom tweak of Cogwork Librarian. It costs and has changeling, otherwise it's the same. This card lends such a nice dynamic to a draft, but I wanted to make it less feel bad if you got stuck with it.
11. Bonesplitter is the perfect equipment for Aggro decks, there really is no adequate replacement available.
12. Wayfarer's Bauble is a fair mana stone, love it.
13. Devour Intellect is Thought Scour for , a cantrip that fuels the graveyard in Dimir and Golgari builds.
14. Figure of Destiny is the one-drop of choice to bolster Boros Aggro builds.
15. Woolly Thoctar is a super sweet three-drop for Anaya Aggro decks. Simple but deadly.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Huh, I wonder

Customs I frequently double up on for testing purposes/for lack of other ideas (Seriously I've designed about 1.75 good blue 1 drops in my life, but my cube wants about 8, so there's gonna be some repeating), but in terms of real cards:

Seeker of the Way: Adding white to the spells deck is awesome and he's essentially the only 2 drop for it at the moment
Emerge Unscathed: See Seeker of the way
Sunlance: Cheap white removal that isn't Swords to Plowshares
Man-o'-war: Because fuck AEther Adept, and having another of this effect is nice
Brainstorm: I'm not wholly in love with this, but I do like normalizing the power level of these effects. 4x brainstorm is much better than Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorm/Serum Visions in terms of drafting
Distortion Strike: Another lovely cheap spell for the spells deck
Remand: People love this card, and memory lapse leaves a bad taste in people's mouths
Condescend: Honestly this could be any other counter. Miscalculation would likely be my choice
Treasure Cruise: This gets cast for about 3ish CC in my environment, and I like it better than something like thirst for knowledge, compulsive research, or Dig through Time
Gravecrawler/Bloodsoaked champion/Bloodghast: These basically need no explanation
Shambling Ghoul: Boy howdy do black 2s suck
Reave Soul: Only sorcery speed doom blade variant
Hero's Downfall: a great flexible card for black, probably switching to Downfall/Ruinous Path, we'll see if it stays there
Damnnation: Languish has play to it that I don't want. I'm trying to encourage the type of control decks that wrath the board, not psudo wildfire
Stromkirk Noble: James has a point, it's interesting and pitches to force. I might add a 3rd
Abbot of Keral Keep: I would not be sad if all my red 2 drops were this card. Also a nice card for the spells deck that isn't as gamebreaking as Young Pyromancer
Young Pyromancer: Speaking of which! He's insane, one of the stronger cards out of the spells deck, and a real headache for control and aggro alike.
Gore-House Chainwalker: He pitches to force with almost zero setup.
Volcanic Hammer: (Soon incinerate) as with brainstorm, there's basically no point in these being different.
Volt Charge: This is the Force I keep mentioning that random creatures pitch to
Wildfire: Not because burning of xinye is expensive (which it is, compared to wildfire's $0.50), but because it looks way worse and sounds way worse.
Birds of Paradise: I haven't gone all the way and cut all the 1 drop mana dorks for these a la brainstorm, but I'm close. Card is great.
Experiment One: Pitches to- you get the idea
Nest Invader: I haven't found a 2 drop that synergizes with more shit
Rancor: Unlike brainstorm, there aren't even other things for this to be!
Evolutionary Leap: Lovely sac outlet
Farseek: Boring, but rampant growth is more boring, and explore/edge of autumn suck
Birthing Pod: It's a deck.
Turn to Log: another flexible answer most decks will play.
Mutavault: the difference between this and Mishra's Factory is that Mishra's Factory makes people feel bad when they attack with their 2/2, since it was printed back when tapped blockers didn't deal damage (Ie: 2/2 attacker or 0/3 blocker).
Mana Confluence: I don't think I need a 3rd city of brass, but I do feel I need a second. Also: much nicer looking than city of brass, and I can trade for them from people other than fellow cube designers
Wasteland: I've espoused why I feel this is better than Tectonic Edge, 4 feels like the right number, and as per brainstorm: Strip Mine is too good, Rishadan Port/Tectonic Edge (in my opinion)/Encroaching Wastes/Dust Bowl/Ghost Quarter aren't good enough
Everflowing Chalice/Mind Stone/Prismatic Lens: You need mana rocks for Wildfire, and I like agnostic ones (unlike signets) so people's brains don't trick them into thinking boros signet isn't playable in their green midrange deck that desperately wants a 2cc accellerant
Blasting Station: Another lovely sac outlet


Whew! Man, there's a lot of these. And that's not even counting customs!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Wow, I removed Song of the Dryads because it underperformed

 

[Chris Taylor]

Wow, I removed Song of the Dryads because it underperformed

It's looooooog, it's s looooooog, it's better than bad; it's good!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think you break singleton in areas where you want to constrict your list. Ideally, you would never break singleton, as singleton provides the maximum amount of format diversity, however that tends to come at the expense of strategic depth.

One of the places where we are most likely to break singleton is aggro one drops, because otherwise we end up running filler, that dosen't add much depth to the format. By constricting the list there, reducing options to a smaller subset of cards, the format becomes artifically smaller, but most healthier.

The cards I break singleton on in the penny cube are:



And the bounce lands. Thats the absolute minimium I can go down on without actively making gameplay worse, or having to sacrifice the budget aspect of the cube. Each one of those effects are unique and difficult to replace in a manner that dosen't fundamentally unbalance the cube. At 360, being already a small format, and because its already so bifurcated due to the lands, its a nice balance between variety and the format consistency needed to provide strategic depth.

The innistrad theme breaks a lot more singleton, but I haven't given as much attention to that cube, and I would probably break singleton more there, because I feel it would benefit from having a more constricted environment. Turillazzo's enviornment is very similar, and some of his singleton breaks I think I would benefit from. I have just been too lazy to do it.

I don't think there is any card that is a "must" break singleton on. However, young pyromancer (which I ironically don't break singleton on in the penny cube, going back to my original point here I suppose) or mogg war marshal I think are good candidates. Young pyro is a lot of fun and goes pretty much anywhere, while war marshal is a flexible card that is completely unique to the card pool. Both cards add a lot of variety to red that is badly needed.

I don't know, I think a lot of it goes back to that article I linked to in the other thread, that talks about large formats and small formats. Breaking singleton is a way to artifically constrict your cube into a smaller format, and the degree to which that is desirable is going to vary based on what your goals and what your group enjoys.

 

[blacksmithy]

I'm debating whether to double up on Blade Splicer and Courser of Kruphix. (I'm likely doubling up on one card in the other three colors as well, but those are easier decisions for me.) For my cube, splicer gives me a token, an artifact, a blink target, and a tribal lord (which satisfies my tribal-thirsty drafters more than it does me but w/e).
Courser gives me an enchantment, a topdeck reveal, and a landfall trigger, which hits a lot of my targets for a green card.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I doubled up on Blade Splicer before and can recommend it. It's always a good card, no matter what white deck you end up running, and it's stellar in both go wide strategies, blink strategies and artifact strategies. Card is sweet. You won't be disappointed!

Courser is a very good card, but also very defensive. It's a very good blocker vs weenies, and gains a ton of life to boot. Be aware of that when deciding whether to double up on it, because your Aggro decks will suffer a bit. Doubling up on Birthing Pod, Collected Company, Experiment One or Eidolon of Blossoms, depending on which theme you want to push in green, might be a safer choice.

 

[blacksmithy]

You make good points on both cards. Now you've got me combing my green section for a better card to double (that i own dubs of).
Some that i'm looking at, besides the ones you mentioned, are Harrow (landfall, graveyard, instant shuffle effect); Green Sun's Zenith (does all the things in basically every theme you can think of); rancor; and e-wit.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Harrow isn't an effect that you can't get elsewhere as far as the fixing is concerned, it's really only interesting in the landfall deck as an instant speed double trigger. It's also incredibly feel bad to have your Harrow countered.

GSZ is pretty cool, especially if you run a ULD with Dryad Arbor and a few multicolor targets to spice up your list of eligible creatures.

 

[CML]

It's also incredibly feel bad to have your Harrow countered.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Can you imagine this being countered in IPA limited by

...

 

[blacksmithy]

I wonder whether doubling up on Life from the Loam would help people recognize there's things they can do with it... Or just give us another 15th pick floating around :S

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

That's tricky. I feel like it's both a matter of having there be enough support to make it worth picking up and building around, but even with support only 1 copy might not be enough to move into that strategy. The best thing is probably to look over that the support exists to make a deck that can compete with other decks draftable in the cube, and then go ahead with breaking singleton.