General Fight Club

(Sorry for all the posts in a row, but I've been out of the loop for almost a year and I'm in the middle of a big cube update, so I have many questions.)

And now, in the Izzet Tempo Flyers division:

vs

Or do you run both, and cut something powerful but boring like Electrolyze?
 
I'm glad the forum's getting more active! Post as much as you please.

To your question: Bloodwater Entity, and it's not even close.

Stormchaser Mage is only good when everything is running perfectly for the "Izzet Spells-Matter" deck, which is a trap many of the "Izzet Spells-Matter" deck pieces fall into. {U}{R}'s "aggressive prowess deck" too easily plays out like a Storm deck; either everything is working, or it's not. You need the right amount of card draw (always in high demand) and burn (ditto), and you have to draw the right pieces of your deck at the right time. It's a very temperamental deck, and I don't really endorse it at all anymore.

That said, I did test it; the vast majority of the time, it was a pathetic 1/3 that I held back as a blocker, and (super inconsistently) it would hit in the air for 2~3. It's just not a great card for cube unless your environment is drastically lowered in power.

Bloodwater Entity I like a lot; getting back your best spell is always sweet, and the 2/2 body is decent enough to bluff a 3/3 blocker when you're on the backfoot and chip in for some damage when you're the beatdown. That said, this style of card, while I'm quite fond of it, certainly does better in a low/mid-power cube; if it's competing with Eternal Witness and Seasons Past in the green section, this kind of effect looks a little less attractive. That said, {U}{R} is at such a dearth of playables at that power level, that I'd probably consider running it anyway.
 
How do you feel about in that slot?

EDIT -

Ooh! Or how about ? I've got a bunch of madness spells in there and that guy was always a beating in RTR limited.
 
I think I like Bloodwater over both of those. Mercurial chemister seems better if the format it's in is low on ETB effects. If that's the case for you, it does gain some stock. I just prefer the efficient flying body with useful ETB more, generally.
 
Fevered Visions seems pretty bad. I'm not sure what deck you'd have in mind for {U}{R} where it would either signal to your drafters its existence or just easily slot in as a cool piece to play around with.

Again, I must stress that I think the problem with most people's approach to {U}{R} is that it comes together sort of like storm: incredibly fragile in the drafting process, where you must get the right balance of enablers and things that care about them at the right points in the mana curve. Assuming you manage that, you must then draw the right parts of your deck at the right time.

I think the key in designing for the pair is giving them tools, especially in the multicolor section, that can give them some reach when the "tempo" plan goes a bit off the rails. That's why I've got Bloodwater Entity (getting back your best spell), Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (incredible reach and pressure with a prohibitive mana cost that discourages even greedy drafters from picking it up if they're not on the {U}{R} plan), and Invoke the Firemind (arguably one of the best draw spells in my list currently, that also doubles as a finisher if need be). These tools are obviously power-level dependent (and even dependent on how powerful and where your card draw is in your list!), but they're great solutions to a long-standing problem with traditional {U}{R} design, I think. (They're also ideas I lifted from Grillo - credit where credit is due!)

So if your {U}{R} deck is some "tempo" deck, Fevered Visions seems to be constantly threatening to give your opponent something that can truly set you on the backfoot. And, unless you're a Dragons format, it's not too hard to dump your hand down to 3 or less to keep from taking the Shock. I'm just not sure what deck wants this. It seems like an attempt to keep {U}{R} drawing gas, which is something it can struggle with when all its pieces are tiny and tempo-oriented, but the drawback, of potentially giving gas to your opponent, seems far, far too high. It's a cool-looking card, but it seems like it gets left in the sideboard or risks screwing the player up far too often.

Mercurial Chemister is something I'd run if I was a good two or three notches lower in power level, but I think it really does demand a very removal-light or ETB-light format, which I have been unwilling to completely compromise down towards.

Also, a quick sidebar: most all of my posts are informed, in some manner or another, by analyzing cards through the lens of a decks-not-cards style format, as opposed to a cards-not-decks style format. For more information on what I consider to be a fascinating and highly useful conversation about cube design, I'd really encourage you to check out this thread, if you haven't already. :D
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Okay, with this tempo discussion in mind, pick two:


I'm not sure we've actually hit the right red 5 I like yet.
Sarkhan is nice in that he offers a choice about where to send the 4 damage, but as a matter of necessity for a planeswalker he's indestructible, something I loathe on any card.
Glorybringer offers a different sort of gameplay, and has "Entwine: hope your opponent doesn't have a removal spell". Sadly it turns out that even if they do, his power level is about on par with if they ever don't, they've lost. HARD.

Thundermaw hellkite has none of these problems, but all the steriods he's been on pose a different problem: 5 toughness isn't indestructible, but it's getting up there, and he also really limits the interaction possible on the turn he comes down.

There's also Stormbreath Dragon, who I like in concept, but he's got that annoying theros thing where he has random protection for mostly no reason (See Master of Waves).
 
Are we cool with miracles now? Didn't we decide that they lead to unfair blowouts based on the top of your deck?

I guess it depends on how you build your cube. If the random blowouts are simply based on luck draws then I would not have them. They would feel unfair. If the blowouts are less random and more skill-based with a lot of Miracle support then I would say thumbs up for them. As with many cube-related discussions it very often comes down to how we construct our cubes.
 
the red Five Drop of choice for me is definitely

Besides that I run Kiki-jiki, who has seen moderate success in being a value engine. Mostly agree that we are waiting on 1-2 more "good-but-not-busted" 5-drops.

If I am to pick one to take off of that list, Sarkhan probably. Reducing my planeswalker count has been beneficial to the overall health of my format.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Feveres visions is actually pretty good in my experience. If you are the aggressive deck, it sort of plays like a combination of Howling mine and Sulfuric Vortex. The trick is denying the opponent the chance of utilizing the cards they draw by pudding them with cheaper cards and denial (bounce and counters).
I wanted to chip in to confirm Fevered Visions is way better than RavebornMuse seems to think. Visions is very legit in my experience.
 
I wanted to chip in to confirm Fevered Visions is way better than RavebornMuse seems to think. Visions is very legit in my experience.
What sort of decks is it working in for you? Your recent CT drafts don't seem to be agreeing with your sentiment, because I looked through the most recent 10 UR decks or so, and didn't see it in any of them, or saw it in the side.

It kinda sounds like the type of card that might be good, or even very good, but it's hard to figure out how to maximize it's use during draft, and it's something most drafters don't want to take a risk on.
 
I tested Corpse Augur and wasn't particularly impressed. Vindictive Lich is certainly more interesting, but I have to ask: do either of these cards actually have a home? What sort of deck wants either of these 4-drops? My current evaluation process is always to consider that question; "where does this fit?" At 4cmc, I suppose it does a fine job as a control roadblock, but imho I want roadblocks on T3; on T4, I want to make a more impacting play.


Vindictive Lynch into Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a lot of damage.

From my experience in standard, Fevered Visions is probably best in a deck that wants to be casting a lot of spells (Burn, Monastery Mentor, Jeskai Ascendancy Shenanigans) or be in a shell that wants to make turn cards into other resources. Some decklists for consideration.


















Fevered Visions also just does so much damage if your opponent can't empty their hand.
 
Vindictive Lynch into Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a lot of damage.

From my experience in standard, Fevered Visions is probably best in a deck that wants to be casting a lot of spells (Burn, Monastery Mentor, Jeskai Ascendancy Shenanigans) or be in a shell that wants to make turn cards into other resources. Some decklists for consideration.















Fevered Visions also just does so much damage if your opponent can't empty their hand.

okay but Cube isn't really the same as Constructed and your payoff for "getting there" is a cost-prohibitive Howling Mine that does a poor Sulfuric Vortex impression against Villain when they're already on the backfoot, by nature of being unable to keep less than 3 cards in their hand despite a constant stream of potentially cheap spells and lands to fix their mana screw off this cost-prohibitive Howling Mine that you can in no way temporarily disable for them (which was, if I recall, always one of the huge constructed appeals of Howling Mine, that was never particularly successfully translated to cube). Even setting aside the whole, Cube isn't Constructed thingie, I'm pretty sure most of those Constructed decks are hoping to draw multiples, where it certainly gets a lot better, which is another thing that's not happening in cube.

Don't get me wrong, it looks like a great card in a best-case scenario of {U}{R} Counterburn with enough unconditional counterspells and big burn to lock away any game, but I'm not trying to look for the best-case scenario.

When I look at cards, I'm asking:
  1. whether the card looks fun/exciting, or if it fills a nuts-n-bolts gap in the card pool (Fevered Visions passes the fun/exciting bar, but it's not filling a critical gap per se),
  2. what deck(s) the card fits well into (a Counterburn-style control deck, maybe, but I don't like handing out cards in a control shell personally, so Pass... or a "spells-matter tempo deck" that is too delicate as-is to be giving the opponent free cards, so Pass),
  3. and how the card might perform in a match when
    • you're ahead (highly useful, low risk),
    • at parity (useful, but high-risk),
    • or behind (you know there's a "concede" option, right?)
    The "ahead" scenario matters the least, and the "parity"/"behind" scenario's importance depends on the type of card it is. As an "engine"-style card, I'm more comfortable prioritizing how it does at "parity", since most engines suffer slightly when you're behind, but even at parity, I'm not impressed, and would likely never run it, personally. That's not to say that you can't, or another drafter might not! But knowing my group, it would go unplayed, and I can't imagine it working out well when it did get played, because it doesn't seem to have a home in my format.
As for Vindictive Lich into Gray Merchant of Asphodel, that's... 3 damage + 5 more once you find a sac outlet, but is mono-black Gray Merchant of Asphodel combo really looking for that as a piece? I was under the impression that style of deck wants a lot of {B}symbols in their casting costs, and, given how troublesome that can be for a well-balanced cube to frontload into the 2- and 3-cmc slots, was a sure thing to look to fill at 4cmc, where you have spicy options like Nekrataal, Skinrender, Entomber Exarch, or even Braids, Cabal Minion. Why would I want Vindictive Lich in this role? Because I already have a sac outlet? I guess that's a really quick way to end the game with recursive effects, but I'd rather do that with Gray Merchant of Asphodel directly, personally; it seems far more stylish and fulfilling. That, and I don't particularly think Lava Axe is a fun cube card effect, and being able to cast it repeatedly only makes it go down in my estimation, not up.

Again: by all means - run what you'd like, it's your format. And if it's working great for you: I'm happy. At the end of the day, all that matters is if you're enjoying what you're doing. But "Fevered Visions looks like a bad cube card and a draft trap" isn't really a hill I care to die on; it's just not that important of a card to keep out or get into a format. If you disagree with me, I heartily welcome anyone who runs it to PM me a decklist every time it gets drafted and does well. Maybe you can convert me in the long run! :) That said, I've exhausted my interest in theorycrafting over it, so, I've said my peace, and I hope someone finds it illuminating as to my specific complaints.
 
I don't really care for either of them personally. You need a critical mass of specific pieces (like in those STD lists) to maximize the power of Fevered Visions. Saheeli is just...not very good from what I've seen. She just doesn't do anything unless it's literally a two-card combo that puts you WAY far ahead. Her being so reliant upon that 2nd card really doesn't make her very enticing. If only that +1 let you snipe down x/1 creatures. It would be so much better.

My Izzet section has been the following for about half a year and I don't think I'll be making any swaps anytime soon:



I think Ral Zarek does most of what you'd want from a counterburn deck. He'll usually bolt something, tap down a blocker and let you chip in a few more points of damage, and it redirects your opponent's focus to him for a small window where you can continue pushing aggressively. I've been very impressed with him after bringing him back into the fold. He's shined in UR deck he's been featured in thus far. He's not super exciting or anything, but sometimes you just need strong efficient cards to support your archetype and give you some gas to work with.
 
I don't really care for either of them personally. You need a critical mass of specific pieces (like in those STD lists) to maximize the power of Fevered Visions. Saheeli is just...not very good from what I've seen. She just doesn't do anything unless it's literally a two-card combo that puts you WAY far ahead. Her being so reliant upon that 2nd card really doesn't make her very enticing. If only that +1 let you snipe down x/1 creatures. It would be so much better.

My Izzet section has been the following for about half a year and I don't think I'll be making any swaps anytime soon:



I think Ral Zarek does most of what you'd want from a counterburn deck. He'll usually bolt something, tap down a blocker and let you chip in a few more points of damage, and it redirects your opponent's focus to him for a small window where you can continue pushing aggressively. I've been very impressed with him after bringing him back into the fold. He's shined in UR deck he's been featured in thus far. He's not super exciting or anything, but sometimes you just need strong efficient cards to support your archetype and give you some gas to work with.

I think you're right that Ral Zarek is what I'm really looking for, but he's soooooo booooriiiing. I think I just gotta suck it up, though.
 
Again: by all means - run what you'd like, it's your format. And if it's working great for you: I'm happy. At the end of the day, all that matters is if you're enjoying what you're doing. But "Fevered Visions looks like a bad cube card and a draft trap" isn't really a hill I care to die on; it's just not that important of a card to keep out or get into a format. If you disagree with me, I heartily welcome anyone who runs it to PM me a decklist every time it gets drafted and does well. Maybe you can convert me in the long run! :) That said, I've exhausted my interest in theorycrafting over it, so, I've said my peace, and I hope someone finds it illuminating as to my specific complaints.

I think you reasoned pretty well! I'm actually sold on the idea that it might be better to let the UR cards function as the glue for the deck rather than the main attraction. I would feel much more comfortable picking up Bloodwater entity in a shaky UR "spell pile" deck during draft than Fevered Visions, so it might be worth it just to make the drafts easier on the players and the decks more consistent.
 
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