General Fight Club

TekLazar

TekLazar

Mondschwein said:
Blue often is in need for playable 1drops, black is traditionally thin on 2drops. I really like Evolve and I like if the creature evolving is evasive, so I just threw it in.
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That sounds less like a fight club and more like a, "if we coexist together, we could rule our respective CMCs" club.

Pelt collector I consider a bit stronger, but human on the ooze is usually more relevant in cube, the regeneration is also relevant to survive sweepers. I prefer the ooze because I want a resilient one-drop in my green deck more often than I want a better beater, but if G/x aggro is more relevant than humans/resiliency than I would go with Pelt Collector (or if you're playing elves).
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

Onderzeeboot said:
I did, but now I'm confused why you wanted me to. Could you explain?
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Most people here clearly seem to compare cards in a preferably tight spectrum: you want the cards to be as similar as possible.
I do understand that's making it easier to compare two cards at all, especially without any context given.

But sometimes I just want to hear what people think about two cards put next to each other. What ere the first thoughts that come to your mind? Maybe you even have experience with both of them? If I myself am not able to tell you why exactly I'm comparing those cards, then how could you?

Powerlevel is something I'm very eager to balance. Sometimes it's just about 'how good is a flying one drop compared to a two drop with menace but a better statline?', because maybe the experience of others is that they say 'one is pretty good and the other is garbage'. Or one tells me that those fulfill completely different rolls in their respective deck, but can easily coexist in terms of powerlevel.

That's way more explanation than I wanted, but I guess you get the idea. If not - I'm sorry, I'm really not good at expressing myself in English.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Mondschwein said:
Two fights:

VS

VS

How good is Regenerate on E1, how fast does the collector grow (too fast?), is it relevant that the Slug is also a good blocker?
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Experiment One and Pelt Collector are almost the same card in my opinion. Pelt Collector has the ability to get a little bigger in the average game thanks to death triggers but Experiment One's regeneration is nice to have against other aggro decks. Pelt Collector is a bit more flexible, but since it looks like you're trying to support green aggro I just say to play both. Heck, double up on both even.

I don't understand why Cloudfin Raptor VS Gluttonous Slug is even a fight. These cards aren't fighting for the same slot and aren't even of the same color. These don't step on each other's toes at all. Regardless, I do have some opinions on both.

Cloudfin Raptor is good in aggro blue decks, but it's not the first 1-mana flier I'd be looking to add. First, I'd get my Faerie Seer, Pteramander, Spectral Sailor, and Mausoleum Wanderer into the cube. Blue aggro, even when supported, doesn't run a ton of big creatures, so our raptor friend will rarely be larger than a 3/4 flying with no added bonuses. Since your cube doesn't even have any other 1-drop fliers and is almost completely free of aggressive blue 2-drops, I think you'd be better off with another Cantrip, Card with Cycling {U}, or Cheap Counter.

Gluttonous Slug is nowhere near the top of the pack for black aggro 2-drops. Attacking as a 1/4 menace on turn three just isn't very good when cards like Oona's Prowler and Aphemia, the Cacophony exist which can hit for 2+ damage in the air exist in the same slot. Drafters will have a hard time making this work in especially in a cube without a large black aggro package. Gluttonous Slug card is vaguely interesting, but not good.
 
TekLazar

TekLazar

Mondschwein said:
Most people here clearly seem to compare cards in a preferably tight spectrum: you want the cards to be as similar as possible.
I do understand that's making it easier to compare two cards at all, especially without any context given.

But sometimes I just want to hear what people think about two cards put next to each other. What ere the first thoughts that come to your mind? Maybe you even have experience with both of them? If I myself am not able to tell you why exactly I'm comparing those cards, then how could you?

Powerlevel is something I'm very eager to balance. Sometimes it's just about 'how good is a flying one drop compared to a two drop with menace but a better statline?', because maybe the experience of others is that they say 'one is pretty good and the other is garbage'. Or one tells me that those fulfill completely different rolls in their respective deck, but can easily coexist in terms of powerlevel.

That's way more explanation than I wanted, but I guess you get the idea. If not - I'm sorry, I'm really not good at expressing myself in English.
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I think I follow now, more of like if these were the last two cards in a pack and you're already in blue/black which would you choose?
If that's the case, I think cloudfin raptor beats gluttonous slug every time. Like trainmasterGT said, the turn two clock is pretty slow compared to a clock that starts on turn one. I don't think it will always be a 1/4 on turn 3, and a 2/5 is pretty beefy, but I would prefer if he had deathtouch rather than menace. He takes a lot of effort to get going, for all evolve creature the best ones have low stats that are close to one another. He reminds me a lot of elusive krasis who never went anywhere. If elusive krasis was 2 mana for a 1/2 or 2/1 unblockable creature then he may have seen a little bit of competitive play, but his huge toughness rarely mattered because you wanted to attack with him. That's also the problem with gluttonous slug, yes he's better than clinging anemone, and I'm certain that the slug could make for a fun time with proliferate as you get a 5/8 dude that no one wants to attack into, but you want to attack with him cuz he has menace. He's just kind of awkward whereas the raptor everyone likes and enjoys.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Mondschwein said:
Most people here clearly seem to compare cards in a preferably tight spectrum: you want the cards to be as similar as possible.
I do understand that's making it easier to compare two cards at all, especially without any context given.

But sometimes I just want to hear what people think about two cards put next to each other. What ere the first thoughts that come to your mind? Maybe you even have experience with both of them? If I myself am not able to tell you why exactly I'm comparing those cards, then how could you?

Powerlevel is something I'm very eager to balance. Sometimes it's just about 'how good is a flying one drop compared to a two drop with menace but a better statline?', because maybe the experience of others is that they say 'one is pretty good and the other is garbage'. Or one tells me that those fulfill completely different rolls in their respective deck, but can easily coexist in terms of powerlevel.

That's way more explanation than I wanted, but I guess you get the idea. If not - I'm sorry, I'm really not good at expressing myself in English.
Click to expand...

I think "Fight Club" is mostly about picking between two cards though. If you just want opinions on two different cards that are vaguely alike, that's more of a double "Single Card Discussion". That said, I think Teklazar's take is a good one. Both cards have evasion, and thus encourage attacking with the card. I think the Raptor more naturally fits into on color archetypes. Both {U/B} ninjas and {W/U} flyers are happy to pick up and play Cloudfin Raptor. Since there are quite a few important ninjas with a ninjutsu converted mana cost of 2, the Slug, and because menace is a lesser form of evasion, compared to flying, the {U/B} ninjas deck is less likely to run the Slug succesfully. I will say that I have been more impressed with the Slug in limited play than I had anticipated. a 3/6 menace body, if you can get it up to that, is pretty impactful. Generally, though, high toughness creatures are easier to come by than high power creatures, so in the end, the Raptor is much easier to grow, and thus better at fulfilling its attacking role.
 
Alfonzo Bonzo

Alfonzo Bonzo

I see the slug as more of a midrange card than an aggro one. Can stall the ground early while growing and then be a good threat later. Could see be interested in it if counters are a thing (in black?) but there are probably better options. Cute though.
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

VS VS

Back to the 'real' fights, then. :rolleyes:

As someone who doesn't like raw card draw, this looks like an interesting way for red to draw cards (in fact, if you lower the powerlevel of your card draw spells, red has a lot to offer: looting; exile from TOL and play until end of this/next turn; discard hand and draw three, which often reads as 'discard nothing or a land or something completely useless to draw three'). Did you test any of them in cube?
 
shamizy

shamizy

Are you just looking for a looting effect or a curve-topper once you've exhausted resources? Rix Maadi Reveler will consistently be a looting bear with a kicker mode of occasionally refilling your hand. The other two are late game plays to generate some card advantage when you're running low. Rix Maadi had a brief run in my cube, but I went with Seasoned Pyromancer instead who has been straight gas. Rix Maadi was a little too anemic as a loot bear, just didn't do enough. Ox seems just okay as a curve-topping 4/2, I don't see scenarios where I could consistently have 8 cards to exile from the grave to get it out early and maximize impact. That's just lot of hoops to jump through.

I've ran Bedlam in the past and it was a solid card, but it becomes excellent in decks were you can cast it for 2RR or less consistently. In the majority of cube decks, it's usually more of a 5 or 6 drop unless you're in a Spellslinger shell. I think I like it the most of all three options because it has the best body, highest upside in an appropriate shell, and it has the lowest "cost" to maximize value.
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

I'm looking for a potential curve-topper that draws three, yes. :)
In Limited, I found Rix Maadi Reveler to be quite lackluster, but maybe someone had something different to say about it in Cube.
Bedlam Reveler looks like the strongest of them and I know that it's a beast in constructed Red Prowess, but I have no experience with it in Limited/Cube.
Ox of Agonas is another card I have ZERO experience with, didn't get to see it in Limited. I like the escape mechanic, but I don't know if Red is the right colour for it, as BUG usually is the colour combination for selfmill, but Red is the primary colour in my cube for looting, so it's potentially there.
Has anyone played with Ox of Agonas, yet?

@ shamizy: I find Seasoned Pyromancer to be too strong for my list, I prefer Champion of Wits. Yes, it's better in the long run, but early Pyromancer +2 tokens is pretty damn good. Ox looks interesting as a curve topper that draws you something, and if you get to use it's escape even once (and likely draw three) I guess it's absolutely worth it.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

vs

Two pretty different cards. What do you think? Why do you like each of these cards or not?

On a similar record. Is the additional toughness so important on the Ghoul?

vs

----

Let me add another one

vs

Do those two cards fill a similar role to you or are they only superficially similar?
 
Rowan_CB

Rowan_CB

I've never been a huge fan of Phyrexian Ghoul compared to some of the other free sacrifice outlets black has to offer. I've never played with Stronghold Assassin, but it strikes me as a little slow. If you are trying to support a more grindy sacrifice strategy I would try the assassin over the ghoul. I think the more aggressive version of the deck prefers Bloodthrone Vampire over Phyrexian Ghoul, and most cubes are also more likely to have incidental tribal upside for vampires.

I don't think Stitcher's Supplier and Mire Triton serve similar roles, although they would often end up in the same deck. Supplier is all in on filling your graveyard. It's likely to be the most important card in the deck for someone building around filling their yard and completely useless to someone who isn't. Mire Triton is a grindy value creature with extra upside in a self-mill deck. Supplier is more of a straight-up combo card.
 
ravnic

ravnic

The first battle is pretty tough. I run the identical Nantuko Husk and it is really, really strong in the sacrifice deck, whether it is aggressive or grindy, in my experience. Stronghold Assassin is a card I never tried, because I don't want to overload on removal, but I think it would be quite a bomb with stuff like Reassembling Skeleton. Repeatable Doomblades are always scary, even if they're a little slow. I think this comes down to what you want more, a beater/finisher or a controlling element.

The second battle is not so close, as I think the 2/2 is a much better initial body for this effect. I can't count how often I've just attacked with Husk and they didn't block because I could've sacced, and the 2 damage is so much more than 1. I also feel like a X/3 dies so much easier than a X/4, with all the red burn dealing 3, the black spells giving -3/-3 and so many three- and four-drops having 3 power. If you want the Vampire synergy over the Zombie synergy, run Blood Bairn or Vampire Aristocrat.

Third battle: They are similar and different. Supplier is pure dredge/selfmill enabler. It's the most efficient tool we have so cheap. It does only one job, but that one does it well. Mire Triton is another caliber. It mills you (an amount every black deck likes), gains you life (also great for dredge like decks to stabilize) and trades with anything on offense and defense. I like her in literally every black deck in my cube environment, and even in dredge I'd probably pick her over Supplier (even though I run both). So Triton is the clear winner to me.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Mire Triton over the all in all self-mill plan.

A 1/1 is almost never useful but a 2/1 deathtouch you will never be sad to see. Even in late game. The fact that it gains life and self-mills will put this card into the ‘Always feel good to cast’-type of card.
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

I agree that Mire Triton is great. It doesn't look like much but it does everything every black deck wants. I would still play Supplier for redundancy.

Is it crazy to want to double up on Triton? Black is pretty short on good self-mill...The only downside is that I'm afraid of too much deathtouch will slow down games. What is the upper limit of deathtouch creatures do you guys think?
Does Mire Triton, Mire Triton, Stinkweed Imp and Gonti, Lord of Luxury sound like too much?
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

I run a lot of selfmill cards, but I want them to do something else than just milling yourself. Mire Triton actually is THE black 2drop I'm thinking about doubling up on, as black's 2 slot is pretty thin, and that card does just so much for so many decks.

That said, I have a soft spot for Stitcher's Supplier, as selfmill is a strategy I very like, and it does deliver a bit of the Innistrad flavour with the crazy labmans and skaabs and so on. Still, too narrow.

Stronghold Assassin was one of the sac outlets I tried because I find cards like Attrition too hard to interact with. Well, it turned out that even on a weak body that kind of ability can be pretty devastating. Not a fan.

cc2 1/1 outlet vs cc3 2/2: I always thought I like the vampire more than the zombies, but ravnic is very right: being able to pump to 4/4 is very relevant in most environments, as a lot of red removal deals 3 damage, redgardless of the powerlevel of your environment. Nantuko Husk is the best one, Carl Critchlow's art always has something badass and reminds me of Magic's greatest era: Invasion/Odyssey/Onslaught/7th.
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

TrainmasterGT said:
Cloudfin Raptor is good in aggro blue decks, but it's not the first 1-mana flier I'd be looking to add. First, I'd get my Faerie Seer, Pteramander, Spectral Sailor, and Mausoleum Wanderer into the cube. Blue aggro, even when supported, doesn't run a ton of big creatures, so our raptor friend will rarely be larger than a 3/4 flying with no added bonuses. Since your cube doesn't even have any other 1-drop fliers and is almost completely free of aggressive blue 2-drops, I think you'd be better off with another Cantrip, Card with Cycling {U}, or Cheap Counter.
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Somehow I overlooked this, sorry.

First, the cube in my signature isn't the cube I'm on right now, it's still in progress, and I already added Spectral Sailor, Pteramander and Faerie Seer. I also have Benthic Biomancer in my list. :)


That being said; I find a 3/4 flyer for U pretty damn good over the course of a game, and as my cube doesn't support monocoloured decks, blue aggro usually runs a lot of creatures. ;)
 
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