General Fight Club

[Erik Twice]

Let me put it another way. I think being able to cycle Yidaro is not so much an advantage as it is a mitigation of its inherent weakness of being a 7-drop. But if you are getting to 7 mana, is a big beater what you really need? I suspect the average deck will be much happier with a 5-drop in hand that they'll be with cycling Yidaro and hoping to draw it again at a better time. My experience with the card in standard is that you cycle it, wasting mana, and then nothing happens because you don't draw it, it's killed or your opponent benefits from your stumble and beats you first. Limited isn't as mana-tight as standard but I still dislike the card.

In other words, if you are behind, it makes things worse (cycle tax) and it's too expensive for parity situations. It seems it's only great when you are already ahead. There's also not a lot of decks that want it on a synergy basis. I know the power level is not the same, but I would rather have Crater Hellion or Bogardan Hellkite or, on the lower end, Chargning Monstrosaur, Eternal Dragon and Krosan Tusker. They seem more the kind of card I tend to want than Yidaro.

This is just my experience with the card, though. I could be wrong. We are talking about a 8/8 Trample Haste after all. Cycling it might be "mana inefficient" but that's still a big monster beating your face.

 

[japahn]

Well, it's not a powermax cube, so the bar is much lower than you're thinking. Crater Hellion for example was a bit too good - it kind of invalidated everything that had happened so far. I don't want another 5 drop, I need a real payoff for ramp, reanimator, and control in this slot

 

[Dom Harvey]

Yidaro's form of cycling is perfect for effects like Oath of Druids or Sneak Attack, where it's easy to pick up big animals to cheat in but hard to achieve redundancy on Sneak/Oath(/Arcane Artisan etc) and you don't want to draw too many creastures (or any at all with Oath). With a midrange deck in a format that isn't super cutthroat you'll get to 7 mana in a lot of games

 

[Erik Twice]

Well, it's not a powermax cube, so the bar is much lower than you're thinking. Crater Hellion for example was a bit too good - it kind of invalidated everything that had happened so far. I don't want another 5 drop, I need a real payoff for ramp, reanimator, and control in this slot

Crater Hellion is indeed very good. Love the card and the design. On the other hand, I found Massacre Wurm to be way too strong.

I've found that reanimator and to a lesser degree ramp need good targets, otherwise the whole setup isn't worth it. The deck is innherently weak to removal/bounce or its key spells being countered so I had to push a bit into ETB effects to support "control reanimator" and other decks that might be interested in a big creature:



I'm looking at your list and like most of the inclusions. I can see, for example, Overseer of the Dammed being a less powerful Noxious Gearhulk. Some cards from the top of my mind:




Personally, I like the red cards you run more than Yidaro

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Personally, I like the red cards you run more than Yidaro

Yidaro is vastly superior to Rorix Bladewind for sure, and I like it more than Magmatic Force, Zealous Conscripts, and Goblin Dark-dwellers.

*I know conscripts is in the cube for Splinter Twin support, I still like Yidaro more because it's applicable in more decks.

 

[Erik Twice]

vs

Would love to hear your thoughts on this one.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

vs

Would love to hear your thoughts on this one.

I'm not really sure these two are comparable outside of size/cost. Prime Time is just insane at ramping and has trample encouraging attacks. Meanwhile Woodland Bellower tutors for a small creature, meaning that it isn't necessarily a card encouraging any course of action other than maybe "have eternal witness in your deck."

It really depends on what you want with this slot. Do you need a Ramp Finisher that encourages attacks or a Midrange topper that can help with grinding?

 

[Erik Twice]

Yeah I'm mostly interested in hearing what you think of the cards, which roles you think fit better and so on. For example, I do like Primeval Titan a lot, but I don't have any cards that cost a lot of mana, its main use is getting manlands, canopy lands and such. Hence, I wonder if Bellower is better as a 6-mana trampler.

(6-mana Green creatures are surprisingly questionable, so it's a difficult slot)

 

[Dom Harvey]

Some 6-mana green animals I like a lot:



There are a few good roles for Primeval Titan:

- Finding particular lands that reorient the game around themselves (Westvale Abbey, Kessig Wolf Run)
- Finding generally good lands that slot into most Cubes or Cube decks (creature lands)
- An early reanimation target that doesn't dominate the game but gives you a boost towards stuff that does

 

[Karn Cuberated]

vs.
These ended up fighting over a slot. Heir requires discarding, but you can often dump a Gravecrawler-ish creature. It also doesn't die to a single Spirit or a Bird in the air when transformed. Oona's Prowler, on the other hand, seems to lead to more interactive and mindful games and doesn't force it's controller to discard. Haven't figured out which one is more aggressive, since I haven't had much play with the Prowler so far. I'm satisfied with the Heir, but ready for changes.

 

[shamizy]

Yeah I'm mostly interested in hearing what you think of the cards, which roles you think fit better and so on. For example, I do like Primeval Titan a lot, but I don't have any cards that cost a lot of mana, its main use is getting manlands, canopy lands and such. Hence, I wonder if Bellower is better as a 6-mana trampler.

(6-mana Green creatures are surprisingly questionable, so it's a difficult slot)

Bellower doesn't trample though, he just gets chumped forever. Prime Time can actively end games by pushing through damage and thinning your deck of extra unnecessary land draws. Bellower is very mediocre unless it's fetching up an impact 3 drop.

 

[shamizy]

vs.
These ended up fighting over a slot. Heir requires discarding, but you can often dump a Gravecrawler-ish creature. It also doesn't die to a single Spirit or a Bird in the air when transformed. Oona's Prowler, on the other hand, seems to lead to more interactive and mindful games and doesn't force it's controller to discard. Haven't figured out which one is more aggressive, since I haven't had much play with the Prowler so far. I'm satisfied with the Heir, but ready for changes.

Are you looking for a discard outlet with extra play to it or an aggressive flyer? Heir is better in generic aggro decks pushing through that guaranteed 3 damage in the air, Prowler checks off more boxes in terms of utility serving as a multiple use discard outlet. For a purely aggressive 2 drop, Heir is better the majority of the time.

 

[Karn Cuberated]

Are you looking for a discard outlet with extra play to it or an aggressive flyer? Heir is better in generic aggro decks pushing through that guaranteed 3 damage in the air, Prowler checks off more boxes in terms of utility serving as a multiple use discard outlet. For a purely aggressive 2 drop, Heir is better the majority of the time.

I was mainly looking for an attacking evasive dude (or girl). So, she stays. Thanks!

 

[ravnic]

How would you rank these and why?



Main purpose is applying pressure as a hasty 3 drop in aggressive decks, but also be good enough to be tempting for more midrange-y stuff.

 

[Brad]

Boar Umbra is an uncommon, so it must be the best one!

Umbra is better than Elephant assuming you'll protect something better than the token. So it depends if you expect this to go down t3 and what your 2 drops look like.

Elephant is better in lower power where the 3/3 beats your two drops or if you have populate around.

Moldervine looks like the weakest of the three to me on the surface, but could potentially be your best thematic fit. I just feel like other green cards do this better at all power levels.

I really think Umbra fills your two desired roles well, especially midrange-y, but there's also something good about the best creature on the board being vulnerable and a 3/3 is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Moldervine is the best one vs bounce by a mile. Whatever befalls your creature, you can always suit up the next elf. Of the three, it's the one that most behaves like equipment (in that you can reattach it to a new creature), and it has some nice graveyard interaction to boot.

Also, Elephant Guide and Moldervine Cloak were both uncommons when they were first printed But maybe Brad knew that and was just joking around

 

[inscho]

I’m a big fan of moldervine cloak. Pair it with a Bloodghast-type creature and you have a pretty large recursive beater. It’s really nice in a fair way with heavy self-mill themes and stax strategies.....death cloud, etc. It’s one of the few auras I’ve found that has broad archetype appeal.

 

[ravnic]

Thanks guys! I think I like Elephant Guide/Boar Umbra more for a straight up aggro deck, but Moldervine Cloak is probably appealing for greater variety of decks. If the +3/+3 for 3 appears to be something really good for my environment, I'm coming back to find a winner between these two!

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Moldervine Cloak also does this cool thing that we've tried to a highlight a little bit the past weeks about serving multiple roles and being "dense" in themes. It's both good for aggro and self-mill, and because it comes back works both in more regular stompy aggro where you just curve out with 1 and 2 drops and want pumps and auras, as well as more protect the queen style decks where you try to make one of your creatures really tall with auras and equipment. Since it comes back, it does a pretty good rancor impression.

 

[Brad]

Seems I may have underestimated the power of "Equip , Skip your draw step, Mill 2"

Might give it a whirl sometime.

 

[ravnic]

On the base of raw power level this one might seem easy ...




... but while the Supplier is obviously much better at fueling dredge, the faerie has some legs in other archetypes too, as a Suntail Hawk is totally serviceable for aggro decks in my environment, and it works well with the Ninjutsu deck. So my question is: How good, or how much worse at filling your graveyard is the faerie? Would you still pick and play him in a dredge value pilecompareable to this?

(23) 1 Stitcher's Supplier 1 Werebear 1 Perilous Myr 1 Nyx Weaver 1 Stinkweed Imp 1 Bone Shredder 1 Den Protector 1 Pilgrim's Eye 1 Gravedigger 1 Bane of the Living 1 Hell's Caretaker 1 Brawn 1 Bonehoard 1 Golgari Grave-Troll 1 Gleancrawler 1 Tortured Existence 1 Spawning Pit 1 Winding Way 1 Coldsteel Heart 1 Golgari Signet 1 Haunted Crossroads 1 Nighthowler 1 Twilight's Call

 

[TrainmasterGT]

On the base of raw power level this one might seem easy ...




... but while the Supplier is obviously much better at fueling dredge, the faerie has some legs in other archetypes too, as a Suntail Hawk is totally serviceable for aggro decks in my environment, and it works well with the Ninjutsu deck. So my question is: How good, or how much worse at filling your graveyard is the faerie? Would you still pick and play him in a dredge value pilecompareable to this?

Faerie is much worse at filling the graveyard than Stitcher's Supplier. It takes the faerie 7 turns to mill what Supplier can theoretically do in one (with a sac outlet). You probably wouldn't play the Fae in a dredge deck. However, I think the suntail hawk body is serviceable in Ninja decks and black aggro decks with a high density of Gravecrawler-esque recursive bodies. This fight really isn't as close as it may seem- these two cards exceed in completely different areas.

 

[Brad]

Stitcher is fucking ridiculous as this kind of effect. This one isn't close for "mill me" effects. Now, if you wanted to compare faerie to another ninja enabler and say it can enable dredge as a plus, that might be a fight.

 

[faithlesslooter]

I'd consider stitcher to have pseudo-evasion (at least in game one). If you make what looks like a chump attack, your opponent will probably assume you want it to die (to fuel graveyard nonsense) and choose not to block to avoid giving you free graveyard value. In that way, it probably makes a passable ninjitsu enabler that can also go in other decks (I'm guessing that the only deck that wants Eye Collector is ninjas?).

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Which of these two is more interesting? I run Zur the Enchanter and a minor historic theme in white in my cube, but almost no land destruction.

PS I know about Underworld Connections, that's not the card I'm looking for.