General Fight Club

Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Chris Taylor said:
Vanilla doesn't mean bad, it just means the creature doesn't have any abilities.
Chimney imp and Snapcaster Mage are not a vanilla creatures, Tarmogoyf and Scornful Egotist are
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I think what I find interesting is how people feel about ETBs. If a version of kokusho was releaed with an ETB life swing, rather than a death trigger, does that bump it up to something "cubeable"?

Its the idea that kokusho needs synergy to be good, and dosen't apply enough value, since it might not die, and at that point it is a vanilla 5/5 flyer for 6, which is unplayable.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yes, absolutely - not to mention that ETBs have other synergy with things such as blink. Death triggers are a lot harder to maximize full value out of, unless you're drafting the RB sac-aggro shell, or a midrange Pod variant; this is doubly hard with expensive creatures, compared to early drops.
 
B

blacksmithy

That's why I really like leaves-the-battlefield triggers. It's not as fast to get value as an ETB, but it synergizes with a wider range of effects.
Of course, LTB gets a bad rap when the only cube bomb that uses it is Thragtusk... But I feel like there's a lot of space to be explored in LTB as opposed to death triggers.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
ahadabans said:
Vanilla to me means it has no abilities and is just a pile of stats. Wurmcoil has lifelink and it comes back as two token creatures when it dies. In my mind, there's nothing vanilla about that card at all. It's not vanilla, french vanilla, neapolitan, or any other generic flavor. It's orgasmic rocky road cookie dough jubilee laced with cocaine. People shouldn't run it simply because you will need to check yourself into a power max recovery clinic afterwards.

Maybe we just have a different definition though and I'm getting hung up on terminology. Someone referred to Kokusho's death trigger as a "punisher" effect, which is in line with calling Wurmcoil "vanilla" to me.
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Wait what? Kokusho is a punisher effect? :p
I mean sure, by that definition every creature is a "punisher card", because your opponent has the choice to either remove it or let it deal damage to them :p

Maybe they were being more literal? I mean they are punished for killing him...

I think we are getting hung up on terminology. Like I said, nobody thinks Goyf is any worse for being vanilla :p
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Eric Chan said:
Yes, absolutely - not to mention that ETBs have other synergy with things such as blink. Death triggers are a lot harder to maximize full value out of, unless you're drafting the RB sac-aggro shell, or a midrange Pod variant; this is doubly hard with expensive creatures, compared to early drops.
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I can't help but feel that a big part of that is the lack of cheap efficent sac outlets: as demonstrated by the discussion in your cube thread. Goblin bombardment and pod are the only two I can really get excited about, and that puts LTBs in an awkward spot-especially high cc LTBs. Back when kokusho was first printed you didnt have that problem because of the legend rule--and I think thats probably the answear to ahaba's original question.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

I honestly think people just expect more from high CC cards now. I really don't think the legend rule is why Kokusho was considered good back in the early days of cube. Paying 12 mana and using two cards to life drain 10 actually kind of sucks. It's fine if your opponent is at 10 life and I'm sure some guys used this as a mortal combat finisher of sorts, but in cube this is a pretty bogus game plan IMO even if I ran multiple Kokusho's.

If I'm not mistaken (and I might be), this was one of the early "finisher" style cards that gave you an effect even if the creature was killed. Prior to that, you had mostly cards with limited protection but no mechanic to give you value tangible value if they died. The Kamigawa dragons were totally different.

Silvos, Rogue Elemental is exactly the kind of big creature that Wizard's was printing until modern - fattie that you could conditionally protect (in this case regenerate on the cheap) but which gave you zero value if removed. I certainly support the idea that 6 mana should buy you "some" value even if your dude gets wasted, so I like that the game moved in that direction. But there's taking it too far (at least in a midrange dominant meta).
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I would also be interested in some ideas for cards that "feel like a wrath but can attack" as lucre put it.

I would probably run skeletal over kokusho at this point, but something higher power would be cool.
 
japahn

japahn

Legend rule shenanigans was not that relevant.

Kokusho was just a good finisher at the time - remember Ravnica was when creatures started getting better (omg Watchwolf is a 3/3 for 2 without a drawback). The large creatures were especially bad at the time, and a 5/5 flier for 6 with a good death trigger was great. For comparison, the other black finisher of choice was Yukora, the Prisoner.

Some other advantages:
- When Ravnica was released, Golgari decks + damage on the stack meant sacrifice effects were as good as they ever were
- There were no Journey to Nowhere or Oblivion Rings. Creatures either died or were pacified by stuff like Pillory of the Sleepless. Control decks played a lot of mass removal, so even when it got pacified, you'd get your life swing eventually.
- Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farseek and Kodama's Reach made it easy to get to 6 mana with green + two colors, and it was a grindy rather than fast standard. It needed ramp targets
- It dodged Rend Flesh and had some Spirit synergies in niche decks.
- Reanimation was viable - Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni, Nezumi Shortfang, Zombify, Vigor Mortis, Gifts Ungiven
- Good fodder for Sickening Shoal
- Life for Phyrexian Arena
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Grillo_Parlante said:
I can't help but feel that a big part of that is the lack of cheap efficent sac outlets: as demonstrated by the discussion in your cube thread. Goblin bombardment and pod are the only two I can really get excited about, and that puts LTBs in an awkward spot-especially high cc LTBs. Back when kokusho was first printed you didnt have that problem because of the legend rule--and I think thats probably the answear to ahaba's original question.
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There are a ton of sacrifice outlets. The problem is that decks wanting a 6-drop creature usually don't want them. My RB Aggro / Sac decks almost always top out at 4 or 5. Goblin Bombardment doesn't slot into a control shell.

Further, cube pod decks tend to top out at 6 CMC. You're just spreading your curve really thin if you try to stretch up to a 7-drop.

Regarding death triggers to get value, imaging Viridian Emissary with an ETB. Totally different card. I'm not saying better design, but better power level is not really debatable.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Yeah, maybe it's just first-set nostalgia (though nobody has any nostalgia for Saviors so idk) but I love Kamigawa

Grillo_Parlante said:
I would also be interested in some ideas for cards that "feel like a wrath but can attack" as lucre put it.

I would probably run skeletal over kokusho at this point, but something higher power would be cool.
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my boy:



season with Corpse Dance for better taste
 
RavebornMuse

RavebornMuse

vs

I really like the reach both of these dudes offer, but Spikeshot always feels a bit underwhelming in practice, because he really, reeeeally wants equipment to be optimal and I personally avoid playing him unless I am running a way to juice him. Magus' effect risks missing, of course, but it provides some fun bluff potential and it's easy to play out your hand in most aggressive decks, anyway. Magus is also human, which is nice, but his potential to miss and the requirement to tap makes him perhaps a bit less flexible than Spikeshot, because Spikeshot can spikeshoot and then swing in. What do you folks think?

(Note that I realize Magus is just a Cursed Scroll on a stick; this is about adding to red's 1-drop section.)
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think spikeshot is more of a low power/durdly red control card. I never understood why generic zero liked him so much until I slotted him into the penny cube (low power and grindy), with its creature buffs, and it finally had the the time to start wreaking people. I've lost to it multiple times.

Magus of the scroll IDK, haven't played with that card in ages. It was part of my "emergency red buff" back in the dragon cube days, aka google "good red cards" and slap in whatever came up.

Ink-eyes had a period here where it was a first pick, but that was during the very first iteration of the cube, when things were very durdly. I think its at an odd intersection point of format speed, general power level, and strength of creatures being ran. It would be top pickings in the penny cube, but a lot of those old RGD/kami/time spiral cards get to shine in their full glory here, just because its a slower more grindy environment.

I feel the same way about cards like Moloku and Kagemaro (and kagemaro is a great suggestion).
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

I'm probably being overly harsh on Kamigawa, but it was in between a super powerful block and my favorite block of all time. I also really loved the Japanese theme and had very high hopes for it but was totally let down by the drop in overall power level. So for me it was the perfect storm of disappointment.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
RavebornMuse said:
vs

I really like the reach both of these dudes offer, but Spikeshot always feels a bit underwhelming in practice, because he really, reeeeally wants equipment to be optimal and I personally avoid playing him unless I am running a way to juice him. Magus' effect risks missing, of course, but it provides some fun bluff potential and it's easy to play out your hand in most aggressive decks, anyway. Magus is also human, which is nice, but his potential to miss and the requirement to tap makes him perhaps a bit less flexible than Spikeshot, because Spikeshot can spikeshoot and then swing in. What do you folks think?

(Note that I realize Magus is just a Cursed Scroll on a stick; this is about adding to red's 1-drop section.)
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Cursed Scroll for all intents and purposes is a red 1-drop. I wouldn't be averse to filing it as such (with consideration for what type of removal you want this type of effect to be exposed to).
 
frostymoose

frostymoose

RavebornMuse said:
vs
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I was intending to post something similar



I like Cursed Scroll better as an artifact than a creature since I like to think that it's at least plausible that non-red decks would want to run it.
Because I imagine attacking with the magus would be pretty rare, being a creature seems to have little upside, but the setup/payoff of the effect isn't so powerful that it needs to be weakened. Setup for Elder is harder I think, but the upside is
 
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