General Fight Club

[Onderzeeboot]

Now, synergy with other cards and archetypes in your cube is another matter entirely; but for plain ol' control decks just looking for value and board stability, none of the options presented stand out particularly in one way or another.

I find myself in complete agreement with ahadabans on this issue. Why should one of them stand out particularly? Any one of those "will do", and yes, they do leave room for a Terminate to solve the question they pose. Is that a bad thing? If your control deck can't handle a single removal deck, because you only play a single threat, then try building a better control deck with more finishers. From my p.o.v. it's good that they can be answered, because otherwise you'll get BS cards like Grave Titan or Deadship Navigator, which just completely wreck a game.

Also, has anyone actually tried Kothophed? I saw it in one game on Day9's channel, where it completely warped the match by drawing a bazillion cards. That trigger is the real deal!

 

[Diakonov]

It's worth noting that some of these differences of experiences likely come from our cubes being different. For example, I noticed in your cube, Eric, that your control tools aren't quite as aggressively powered as they are in mine, so it makes sense that your control finishers would be a bit stronger to keep your environment balanced.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What do guys feel is the specific change to the game from let's say 2008 to now that took 5/5 flying dragons for 6 with value on death trigger from auto-include into not good enough? If you look back at forum history, you won't find guys including Kokusho just because there was nothing better. It wasn't Silvos, Rogue Elemental (just waiting to be replaced). Pre Grave Titan, it was a prime finisher that you would snap include in any control deck and maybe even draft control or reanimator if you saw it early in a pack.

A good question, and actually got me thinking of this comparison:





Both cards come from the same blueprint: army in a can control finishers, and skeletal is arguably better as it blocks more things. However, skeletal dosen't have the same condensing effect on the game that grave titan has, and that seems to be the big shift. Skeletal is the "worse" card because it dictates that more magic be played by its slower nature, and more magic means more interaction and the ability to lose. Grave titan quickly closes out the game in a brutal manner, condensing the game down to a few turns, and minimizing the window for an opponent's interaction.

Which is kind of terrible.

 

[Diakonov]

Huh. I've never noticed before that every aspect of Grave Titan is exactly twice as large as Skeletal Vampire.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Double deathtouch!

 

[Chris Taylor]

Does the "terminate test" start to apply at six mana? Honest question, I haven't visited the other place in years.

Also, the reason I brought up the other four cards in comparison is that the crux of the argument seems to be that "5/5 flyers for six with upside should be good enough", and I wanted to point out that that hasn't been true, for about as long as I've been cubing. Whether that upside is a death trigger, activated mass removal, an attack trigger, or something else can be adjusted for the particular environment, but in any case my feeling is that they're all roughly on par with one another. Now, synergy with other cards and archetypes in your cube is another matter entirely; but for plain ol' control decks just looking for value and board stability, none of the options presented stand out particularly in one way or another.

Most people have swapped over to the vindicate test, which lets creatures that have haste (for eg) be good as well.
Which they all still fail

 

[RavebornMuse]

Which would you run? I like Molten for the damage incentive, so it's more reasonable to maindeck even off a land-destro plan since damage is always nice and destroying a key dual can help aggro keep punching in, but I'm also tempted by Pillage, since artifacts can be really annoying and they stick in my format pretty well. I'm not sure if I want either, but I was considering trying one. (FYI - I don't run Wastelands and such currently, so this would be one of the extremely few land destro effects available in my format).

 

[Chris Taylor]

I like molten rain so much I constructed my cube such that pillage wouldn't be necessary

 

[Eric Chan]

I find myself in complete agreement with ahadabans on this issue. Why should one of them stand out particularly? Any one of those "will do", and yes, they do leave room for a Terminate to solve the question they pose. Is that a bad thing? If your control deck can't handle a single removal deck, because you only play a single threat, then try building a better control deck with more finishers. From my p.o.v. it's good that they can be answered, because otherwise you'll get BS cards like Grave Titan or Deadship Navigator, which just completely wreck a game.

To respond to this real quickly, I wasn't suggesting that Grave Titan be the standard bearer for what a six drop finisher should look like; my point was that Kokusho isn't a strong board stabilizer, but neither is he a strong pure finisher. Aetherling is obviously the best example of a card in the latter category, and Oona, Queen of the Fae isn't too far behind. In terms of closing out the game, though, Kokusho isn't a whole lot better than Shivan Dragon. That's why I'm a bit surprised at the affection for him on this board - I'm trying to figure out whether it's because he's a genuinely strong card, or whether it's nostalgia for another era talking.

 

[Jason Waddell]

To respond to this real quickly, I wasn't suggesting that Grave Titan be the standard bearer for what a six drop finisher should look like; my point was that Kokusho isn't a strong board stabilizer, but neither is he a strong pure finisher. Aetherling is obviously the best example of a card in the latter category, and Oona, Queen of the Fae isn't too far behind. In terms of closing out the game, though, Kokusho isn't a whole lot better than Shivan Dragon. That's why I'm a bit surprised at the affection for him on this board - I'm trying to figure out whether it's because he's a genuinely strong card, or whether it's nostalgia for another era talking.

Nostalgia fo-sho. Vanilla 5/5 flyer for 6 that has to die to get additional value.

 

[ahadabans]

I think the 5 life drain is being underrated a bit honestly. It can both finish off an opponent after you swing (with sac outlet - dealing 10 damage in a single turn), and it can help get you out of the red zone should your opponent kill it - giving you another turn to play cards. As the control player, the longer the game goes the more inevitability favors you.

It's also worth noting that most decks do 5+ points of damage to themselves throughout a game when you add up fetchlands, shocks, pains (if you run them) plus any incidental damage outside that (especially true for aggressive decks that can't afford to lose tempo by putting lands into play tapped). By the time you shift from defense to offense in a control deck, you generally don't need to do 20 points of damage.

There are plenty of finishers that are stronger than Kokusho. Not arguing that at all. My 2 cents though is he hits the right sweet spot on what I want a 6 drop doing. That's why I like him so much. There are several cards that for me are exactly the power level I want at their respective CMC. Avalanche Riders, Karmic Guide, Genesis. But I'm old school. And while I like that we are getting all these creatures above the curve now (opening many new doors for cube design), I have to pick and choose and exclude many of them (especially high CC ones) simply because they do more than I think they should for the cost. I don't really want my finishers stabilizing the board and representing huge threats at the same time (one or the other). Stabilizing was what your first 5 turns were for if you were playing true control.

Lowering the top end certainly weakens control - which is fine in my mind because control really doesn't need help being good. But it also weakens directionless value midrange decks, and that I'm a huge fan of because they are super easy to draft. Talking about cards printed today by Wizards... power level of cards from 1CC to 6+CC is probably a linear line (or close to it). In other words, you get 6 times as much for your mana at 6CC as you do at 1CC (adding up power and abilities). I'm more in favor of an inverted exponential curve, which is closer to how the game originally was designed. There were 2/1's for 1 but the higher you went the more the power to mana ratio dropped. 2/2 for two (bear). 5/5 with evasion for 6 was above the curve all by itself (add 5 point life drain on death trigger and you have a really solid card there).

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think it says something all on its own that we are describing kokusho as a vanilla creature.

 

[RavebornMuse]

The problem isn't that Kokusho is bad - I don't think anyone here would call him "bad". He's just really boring outside of a multiplayer format, where his ability goes up in value. But on the face of it, he's just awfully dull. A 5/5 flyer for 6 is a fine body, but not super exciting to me on its own. That his corpse is a Lava Axe isn't really that exciting, either. Giving that Lava Axe lifelink and putting it in Black doesn't help at all; in fact, the effect might be more appealing if it was red, because at least then I might be using him as some sort of quirky burn tool in a deck with lots of other burn. The fact that you don't even get that lifelinked, black Lava Axe until your 5/5 flyer dies is another layer to this card's "ugh" factor for me, because I hardly wanted the black, lifelinked Lava Axe in the first place, and I certainly don't want to work for it. He's a fine big dude and all, but he just isn't that exciting to me, which is why I'm not interested. Bad? No, he's not bad. And I appreciate his death trigger fine enough - it's pretty sick in a powered cube with Recurring Nightmare (just like everything else). But it's just efficient, which isn't really what I'm looking for when I want an expensive threat; I curate my power level very carefully so that I can do more with my sections than just run efficient things and run things that excite me and my drafters. If he excites your group, cool, I dig it. He's got pretty rad art, I'll give him that much - I quit during Kamigawa way back in my middle school days, so I have some nostalgia for the block. But he just doesn't really get me excited.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I think it says something all on its own that we are describing kokusho as a vanilla creature.

Well in play, he is.
Also we all know that we use Vanilla and French Vanilla interchangably, right? Right? Moving on

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I don't. I had never heard the term french vanilla before.

I also wasn't being judgmental: it just goes to ahabas original question of how things have changed. I don't think many people in 2005 playing the game would have viewed kokusho as vanilla, but in 2015 he feels vanilla. Thats interesting. Especially on the back of gray merchant bring printed.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Is there something about how we are all using the term "finisher"? If we are describing him as a way for control to close out the game (or perhaps high end midrange) then you can probably find options that are better than kokusho. But as a more expensive card that plays a role in an attrition type deck where you have a theme of sacrificing and recurring creatures (something black generally wants to do, at least in my cube) then is it an interesting choice that encourages a push towards a certain type of deck?

I don't have a strong conviction one way or the other and kokusho doesn't really excite me, but I think there is an argument there, or at least a more grey area.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Tehcnically French Vanilla means Vanilla with a keyword: Trained Orgg is vanilla, Rootbreaker Wurm is french vanilla (Akroma, Angel of Wrath is Napoleon)
But for the purposes of this discussion, nobody cares

And it's a weird balance. By my definition, Wurmcoil Engine is "Vanilla in play", but lifelink ends up being so huge it feels like an actual ability, rather than some keyword like trample or flying.

 

[ahadabans]

Man... if Wurmcoil Engine is "Vanilla", there aren't any other flavors of ice cream.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Vanilla doesn't mean bad, it just means the creature doesn't have any abilities.
Chimney imp and Snapcaster Mage are not a vanilla creatures, Tarmogoyf and Scornful Egotist are

 

[ahadabans]

Vanilla to me means it has no abilities and is just a pile of stats. Wurmcoil has lifelink and it comes back as two token creatures when it dies. In my mind, there's nothing vanilla about that card at all. It's not vanilla, french vanilla, neapolitan, or any other generic flavor. It's orgasmic rocky road cookie dough jubilee laced with cocaine. People shouldn't run it simply because you will need to check yourself into a power max recovery clinic afterwards.

Maybe we just have a different definition though and I'm getting hung up on terminology. Someone referred to Kokusho's death trigger as a "punisher" effect, which is in line with calling Wurmcoil "vanilla" to me.

 

[blacksmithy]

Divine Deflection vs. Acolyte's Reward
Miraculous Recovery vs. Karmic Guide
The wheel of fate is turning... Rebel One... Action!

 

[ahadabans]

I've run both Miraculous Recovery and Karmic Guide. The guide is far more abusable and if I had to choose just one, I'd pick that every day and twice on Sunday. But I think recovery is pretty sweet too. There aren't many instant speed reanimation effects, and this one has an overlap with +1/+1 counters. It is very expensive though, so it may be too slow for many contemporary lists.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Vanilla to me means it has no abilities and is just a pile of stats. Wurmcoil has lifelink and it comes back as two token creatures when it dies. In my mind, there's nothing vanilla about that card at all. It's not vanilla, french vanilla, neapolitan, or any other generic flavor. It's orgasmic rocky road cookie dough jubilee laced with cocaine. People shouldn't run it simply because you will need to check yourself into a power max recovery clinic afterwards.

Maybe we just have a different definition though and I'm getting hung up on terminology. Someone referred to Kokusho's death trigger as a "punisher" effect, which is in line with calling Wurmcoil "vanilla" to me.

Can't like this more than once. /sad

 

[RavebornMuse]

Divine Deflection vs. Acolyte's Reward
Miraculous Recovery vs. Karmic Guide
The wheel of fate is turning... Rebel One... Action!

1. Divine Deflection, and it's actually kind of an interesting card I don't remember seeing. I don't think I'd run it per se because it's a strange effect that could lead to some feel-bads, but it's on my radar now for consideration, so, thanks! I don't like Reward at all; it's too demanding, and most people run few double-CC cards, so it seems difficult to really get full value from. From a draft perspective, I would never pick or maindeck Reward, but I might just try out Deflection.
2. Guide has always been something I wanted to try, but the prot black has kept her out of my cube so far. I really adore her, though. Personally, I like Recovery, too, but I prefer to focus reanimator in black, for flavour reasons and to give colours their own identities. I really adore the flavour of Guide, though, and I think it's so fitting in white. From a draft perspective, I'd always want to pick Guide, but I'd rarely care enough to bother with Recovery.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, the reason I see Kokusho as a mostly french vanilla Shivan Dragon is that in a pure control deck - one going for value, attrition, and long game, rather than synergy with sacrifice effects - we found over here in practice that it was actually a lot harder for his death trigger to go off than it might seem at first glance.

• Most white removal either exiles the creature (Path to Exile, Banisher Priest, Oblivion Ring), moves it to another zone (Condemn, Unexpectedly Absent), or just leaves it sitting on the board (Temporal Isolation, Prison Term).
• Blue doesn't really have removal - but it can counter the creature, temporarily bounce it to gain tempo (Man-o'-War), or just gain control of it entirely (Control Magic).
• Red has a tough time dealing five damage to anything, other than with an X spell.
• Green doesn't really do removal, either, other than Plummet effects, which most of us aren't running.
• That leaves black removal. Curiously, a lot of black removal misses Kokusho (Doom Blade, Shriekmaw), and even of the ones that don't, you're more likely to have drafted them, by nature of being in heavy black.
• Mass removal exists across many colours, but again, by nature of being the control deck, there's a decent chance you've picked up more than your fair share.
• He's an evasive 5/5 body, so when you attack with him, it's difficult for your opponent to amass a gang block that can kill them, unless they happen to have a dragon of their own.
• You can leave him back to block, and try to force a trade with one of their larger animals, but again this situation gives control to your opponent to decide whether or not they should attack into an untapped Kokusho.

For all those reasons, Kokusho doesn't make for the best generic black control finisher, as it's actually pretty tough to get him to shift his big butt from the battlefield to the graveyard. This is why I found it curious that the "terminate test" was referenced, because unless you're using the specific spell Terminate in your cube, I don't think the so-called test could be less relevant in a scenario than this one. Speaking more broadly, this is the reason I don't find "tests" such as these very useful for actual cube design - they give you quick, snappy results that you can use as soundbites, but tend to ignore the realities of nuanced, purposeful cube design.