General Fight Club

[Grillo_Parlante]

Wall of roots is probably the best mana dork you can run: blocks, high def, produces mana right away, can produce mana on both turns. You can even activate it between turns.

I like at least the idea of lotus cobra, though how good it is in practice I don't know. It just seems like it can go in a much greater variety of decks, while the 1/1 mana dorks take up a lot of space, and are fairly narrow in where they slot.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Possible controversial opinion incoming, but has anyone been impressed by Lotus Cobra in a cube environment? Even with 20 fetches in a 360, the little guy occasionally doesn't produce mana right when you most need it, which is infuriating; the very rare occasions he boosts you by two mana don't make up for it. His 2/1 body is mostly irrelevant, even on the play, though at least his stats fare slightly better in low-curve aggro decks. Still, though, I can't help but notice how much worse he is than Wall of Roots, or even Sylvan Caryatid, in cube. Maybe it's time to just jam another Elvish Mystic...?!

I find the card exciting and fun enough as-is. When you get to make those explosive plays, it's really nice, yeah, but even when you don't, Cobra still makes a fine card to turn sideways, and getting a free extra mana off of land drops is juicy enough in my opinion, not only if you've got fetches, but also with things that put more lands into play. I guess if your drafters are mean and crusty, the potential stumble Cobra might give over, say, another Elvish Mystic could be worth the swap, but I dunno, I hate when a green section is a linear, 1-colour deck of "draft all these 1/1 rampers, all the ramp spells, and some busted fatties", which is just what I think a bunch of 1-drop rampers tends to signal. Been there, done that at just about every other cube environ; I'd rather not put it in mine, too.

 

[sigh]

It basically seems like the debate just goes back to "2 mana dorks" v. "1 mana dorks", which isn't entirely surprising. With that in mind, my group was happy with werebear, so I think deathcap dude will be received just fine. Also foil = awesome

 

[psly4mne]

I'm a fan of Lotus Cobra as well. Sometimes you get all the fetchlands and it is awesome, which is even more likely to happen if you're playing more colors and you need the Cobra's fixing more. Sometimes it just produces mana while beating down. Either way it's good. I'd certainly take Wall of Roots or Sylvan Caryatid over it in a control deck unless I already had lots of fetches.

 

[ColonelSanders]

Possible controversial opinion incoming, but has anyone been impressed by Lotus Cobra in a cube environment? Even with 20 fetches in a 360, the little guy occasionally doesn't produce mana right when you most need it, which is infuriating; the very rare occasions he boosts you by two mana don't make up for it. His 2/1 body is mostly irrelevant, even on the play, though at least his stats fare slightly better in low-curve aggro decks. Still, though, I can't help but notice how much worse he is than Wall of Roots, or even Sylvan Caryatid, in cube. Maybe it's time to just jam another Elvish Mystic...?!

So I find this interesting because I played lotus cobra for a long time in a pretty high powered custom cube and had to nerf it to the 3 drop slot (it got deathtouch as a consolation prize). I was running 20 fetches, 20 shocks, and 5 evolving wilds at 400 cards. Sealed may be a bit different because it guarantees everyone will get a a reasonable number of fetches, but I assume in draft, the person who wants lotus cobra will be accumulating fetches too. There were just too many games where a turn 2 lotus cobra led to disgusting turn 3's. I guess some of it depends on where your pay off cards in green fall along the curve. A lot of my big green dudes came in at 5-6cmc instead of 7+, so cobra was able to power them out a turn earlier than it might normally.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Somewhat of an unorthodox fight, and one that needs a little bit of introduction. Over time, I gradually weakened the mana rocks in my cube, in the end cutting everything but a select few 3+ cmc mana rocks. The reason for this is twofold. First, the 2 cmc rock infringed on green's mana ramping identity, and second, aggro decks had a really hard time beating turn 3 Wrath of God.

I wonder if the current setup has a problem though. Hedron Archive and Pyromancer's Goggles are popular, but the 3 cmc rocks don't always find a home, seeming slightly too inefficient. I don't want to reintroduce turn 3 wraths though, so my fight is this.

+ vs. +

This fight is not so much about the individual cards, it's more about the core tenets of artifact acceleration and mass removal. Do I want to prevent t3 Wrath effects by removing the possibility of generating 4 mana on t3, or do I prevent them by replacing the 4 cmc Wrath effects with 5 cmc equivalents?

Of course this still leaves green acceleration up in the air, but maybe ramp isn't necessarily where I want to be with green? That's probably a question for another time though

 

[RavebornMuse]

I think 5cmc wraths is where it's at. I've shifted to 5cmc+ wraths, and I can't say it's hurt my control decks. It's certainly hurt Superfriends decks - but that's exactly who I wanted to hurt when I cut back on wrath effects. I say, bump em up to 5cmc. Obviously it depends on your format speed, but I know, at least over here, that games tend to last a few minutes more than just T4, so playing a T5 wrath still gives you a chance to recover - provided you're not piloting some do-nothing midrange deck, in which case, boo hoo, you're in a disadvantaged match-up, draft more flexibly next time! (sidenote: I deliberately took the do-nothing goodstuff midrange durdle deck last draft. Got stomped. Felt good that my environment was that mean to me for slapping a bunch of goodstuff together, though there's room to improve, and I'm in the process of making relevant tweaks where they're needed once again, of course. But it made for a fun experiment!)

 

[Eric Chan]

Another vote for 2 cmc mana rocks, 5 cmc wraths. I find over here that control decks desperately want to land their artifact acceleration/fixing on turn two, which vaults them out of the early game and squarely into the mid game, which is where they want to hunker down and set up shop. Whether that means casting earlier planeswalkers, expensive removal spells, card draw, stabilizers, or finishers is up to the pilot, but just giving control decks more decision trees earlier in the game opens up a world of potential. It also makes those dicey two lands plus mana rock hands a lot more keepable.

Re: Lotus Cobra, I understand that the best case scenario in cube is less its Standard role as a turbo ramp card for Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Avenger of Zendikar, and more as a Steward of Valeron in an aggro deck. Even in these decks, though, I often find that Cobra is a low pick, as there are plenty more exciting two-drops that rumble in the red zone with a lot more bite. At least in my cube, Lotus Cobra seems to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist; it's often that low-curve attacking decks have little use for a jack-of-all-trades mediocre attacker and mediocre mana dork.

 

[ahadabans]

Well, I've always had a very different view honestly.

When people say they want to prevent T3 Wraths, the first question I have is why? Is the only reason an aggressive deck can win is by overextending into Wraths? That's a serious question, because I do think the answer could be yes depending on how strong your top end cards are. In other words, is midrange/control so strong that an aggro deck either wins by T5 or it has no chance?

It's no secret I prefer Magic the way it played 10 years ago. Back then, the power level of 5+ drops was way way lower than it is today. Midrange/Control did not just win games by playing a 6 drop. If they were behind on the board, that play did not just completely reverse the board state. It was possible to play around wraths by forcing your opponent to use them less efficiently, save cards for later and get those last point of life past T5. Today's meta (in cube at least) feels a lot more polarized.

I've personally witnessed this as my cube has evolved over time. Even though I don't want to be on that power treadmill, new cool cards get printed and I throw them in my cube. And over time I've seen a lot less back and forth Magic in cube, and more Roshambo type outcomes. That isn't how cubed played originally. It isn't what got me so excited about the format. So I've personally actively started dialing back power in an attempt to get the game less polarized.

Long rant and might not help you at all, but I just wanted to give you my perspective on this dilemma you are facing. Because I think in the end, you could run 2 mana rocks, have T3 Wraths and still have a healthy meta. But it would require sacrifices in other areas (namely power cards 4+ mana). You maybe willing to do that and you may not.

You can certainly move towards 5 mana wraths. Inefficient mass removal might have a similar desired outcome. If you weaken that type of removal though, be sure to keep tokens in check. That would be my suggestion to you.

 

[Suicufnoc]

I don't think the mana wraths has much to do with when you can cast them as how much resources it takes. Turn 3 wrath isn't even good in my cube, you rarely kill more than 2 creatures, often 1. But I mostly went with 5 mana wraths because they have more interesting effects the the simple 4 mana ones.

 

[sigh]

That's a super good point. No 4 mana wraths that have Awaken or whatever.

 

[DreamPaint]

Possible controversial opinion incoming, but has anyone been impressed by Lotus Cobra in a cube environment? Even with 20 fetches in a 360, the little guy occasionally doesn't produce mana right when you most need it, which is infuriating; the very rare occasions he boosts you by two mana don't make up for it. His 2/1 body is mostly irrelevant, even on the play, though at least his stats fare slightly better in low-curve aggro decks. Still, though, I can't help but notice how much worse he is than Wall of Roots, or even Sylvan Caryatid, in cube. Maybe it's time to just jam another Elvish Mystic...?!

I think Lotus Cobra is pretty insane and our group ranks it very highly in green pick orders. It's worse than Wall of Roots and Caryatid in ramp, but it's a more flexible card overall because it's much better in aggressive green strategies. I found Wall of Roots to be oppressive against aggro so that's a card I don't currently play.

 

[Eric Chan]

To put things into perspective, this is a recent, sample, 'Little Kid' 3-0 deck from my cube. Lotus Cobra should be theoretically good in such a G/x aggro deck, but in practise, is that even true?

Even with four fetches in this deck, I'm not sure if there's a card I'd cut, were someone to hand me a Lotus Cobra following the draft.

Company Men

 

[Dom Harvey]

Predator's Howl,

 

[Eric Chan]

I personally think the card is underrated: it's pretty straightforward to trigger morbid in a creature-heavy deck, and plays out as a Collected Company that never misses.

 

[Dom Harvey]

how often is it better than Caller of the Claw, a Predator's Howl that you can Collected Company into and is a mana cheaper, which is really important for that kind of effect?

 

[safra]

Please note that I just cut Caller for not performing enough, too. I'd easily cut Mayor, Wisps or Valorous Stance if I could get a Lotus Cobra in there.

 

[Eric Chan]

I haven't cubed with Caller of the Claw, but I'll throw out yet another controversial opinion: Predator's Howl is at least as good as Collected Company in cube, where you don't have nearly as much control over the latter's outcome as you do in constructed, but the former reliably generates six power over three bodies, not a small game. Howl triggering off any creature over Claw triggering only over your own nontoken bodies is also a relevant distinction.

Paying that extra fourth mana for a third body is worthwhile for the added board presence, and is a surprisingly unique effect in Magic, so there aren't really any great head-to-head comparisons. Most of us consider Pia and Kiran cubeable, and Whirler Rogue as on the cusp, whereas Eldrazi Skyspawner isn't on our radars; for army-in-a-can cards, paying more to instantly refill the board is worth the down payment.

I submit that the reason people undervalue Howl is much the same reason that Curse of Predation was a sleeper for a long time after it was printed in Commander 2013: by being released in a 'casual-only' set, there's no limited nor standard basis for comparison, so it's easy for cards that don't read well to get overlooked.

Mayor of Avabruck actually had to go from my cube, after it ran away with a couple of games single-handedly when the opponent on the draw missed their two-drop. It's not always consistently powerful, but when it flips unanswered, it provides a surprisingly large swing for a two-drop.

 

[ColonelSanders]

I haven't cubed with Caller of the Claw, but I'll throw out yet another controversial opinion: Predator's Howl is at least as good as Collected Company in cube, where you don't have nearly as much control over the latter's outcome as you do in constructed, but the former reliably generates six power over three bodies, not a small game. Howl triggering off any creature over Claw triggering only over your own nontoken bodies is also a relevant distinction.

I submit that the reason people undervalue Howl is much the same reason that Curse of Predation was a sleeper for a long time after it was printed in Commander 2013: by being released in a 'casual-only' set, there's no limited or standard basis for comparison, so it's easy for cards that don't read well to get overlooked.

Mayor of Avabruck actually had to go from my cube, after it ran away with a couple of games single-handedly when the opponent on the draw missed their two-drop. It's not always consistently powerful, but when it flips unanswered, it provides a surprisingly large swing for a two-drop.

Good god, when I first (mis)read howl, I thought it just made 2 wolves on morbid. Still, Yeva never did anything in my cube and she trades some power in exchange for making a bunch of your creatures have flash. I guess it all depends on how easy it is for green to hold up mana and not regret it in your cube.

 

[Eric Chan]

Howl is usually the last thing you want to cast if you're just building out your board presence against another creature deck, but it's the first thing you want to hold up if you're not sure whether to commit more bodies against an opponent who might Wrath at any moment. Though it's an instant, flash creatures like Yeva, Nature's Herald or Boon Satyr aren't its analogues; it's more akin to a Cloudgoat Ranger without evasion, but for a mana cheaper.

 

[blacksmithy]

Whirler Rogue on the cusp? What kind of environment are we talking about here? That shady lady's a slam dunk in every cube I've ever made, including the broken ones.
Re: Howl, try it with Master of the Wild Hunt for maximum value. I kind of prefer the variance of CoCo to be honest because it just feels cooler, but a guaranteed 6 power is definitely strong enough.

 

[Suicufnoc]

On that note, I found the foil Whirler Rogue I bought for my cube! Yay. I will put it in now. Haven't tried it yet.

 

[blacksmithy]

Whirler Rogue is kind of great. She's one of those cards that gives you a decent rate at face value and then synergies with frickin' everything. Tinker? Check. Favorable Winds? Check. Alesha/Lark? Check. Battalion? Check. The list goes on. Also, the unblockability is amazing when paired with any big guy or even with something you just want to keep alive while still applying pressure, like a Bob or (lol) Pain Seer.

 

[Tzenmoroth]

vs vs

Thinking about fleshing out my white gotcha suite. Hard to evaluate these cards though. How strong actually are these cards relative to each other?

 

[ahadabans]

Harm's way is amazing. So that's my vote. Redirecting damage at instant speed wrecks board states.