General Fight Club

[Eric Chan]

Harm's Way is great in aggro vs. aggro mirrors, where there are lots of small and medium sized creatures going to town on one another. You can blow out some opponents pretty hard with this pseudo-combat trick; on the other hand, it does a bad Magma Spray impression against a control, or otherwise creature-light, deck. Emerge Unscathed usually acts as a Negate on initial casting, and then an Artful Dodge on the rebound, and the total package has been surprisingly effective. It's become probably my favourite one-mana protection spell with upside, right up there with Vines of Vastwood. Ajani's Presence reads well, but in practise, doesn't play out as anything special; indestructible is surprisingly lacklustre, because of a multitude of cube effects that exile, grant -X/-X, pacify, or otherwise do Bad Things to your creatures.

 

[ColonelSanders]

Harm's way is the most flexible I'd say. It may do less than emerge unscathed in combat, but it can slot into decks as a weird shock. Emerge is good enough that it can fit into pretty much any power level where creatures turn sideways. Ajani's presence seems less powerful on average

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

It suffers a bit vs control in the way flame strike does, right? And I know Ive seen aggro decks run flame strike in the main.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I like Emerge Unscathed, which is not quite as good as Harm's Way in aggro on aggro matchups, but still playable, and much better vs. midrange and control.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

+ vs. +

This fight is not so much about the individual cards, it's more about the core tenets of artifact acceleration and mass removal. Do I want to prevent t3 Wrath effects by removing the possibility of generating 4 mana on t3, or do I prevent them by replacing the 4 cmc Wrath effects with 5 cmc equivalents?

Waaait a minute... It just dawned on me, what if the correct answer is...

+

??? Right? If your mana rocks naturally ramp you into the fifth mana you need for your wrath, isn't that something that would incentivize playing those mana rocks? When you're cubing with 4 cmc wraths and 3 cmc rocks, as I am, what reason do you have as a control deck to play the mana rock? It doesn't get you anywhere!

 

[ahadabans]

Harm's Way is just really versatile. And I think it's fine even against big fat targets. This happened just the other day. Opponent plays Razormane Masticore. I'm playing a Jeskai weenie type deck. Razormane is usually doom in that situation as it's really hard to remove with burn and FS with 5 power in combat might as well be immortality.

Next upkeep, he discards then targets my Relector Mage. I play Harm's Way back to the Razormane, Volt Charge. High five myself. It wasn't even a two for one because he discarded.

I probably have more creature combat going on than some cubes, so YMMV with this card. I just love instant speed utility spells like this that have unexpected impacts on game states. Piracy Charm is another fun one. Removal, conditional pump, instant speed discard (which can be randomly great), Islandwalk FTW (it does happen).

 

[sigh]

vs.

 

[Laz]

I would actually like some commentary on Obelisk. It strikes me as a card that is similar to Trading Post, but asks for different things in your deck building (colours of mana as opposed to artifacts). Coming on-line multiple turns later seems like it might hurt a card that really needs to hang around for a while.

 

[sigh]

I would actually like some commentary on Obelisk. It strikes me as a card that is similar to Trading Post, but asks for different things in your deck building (colours of mana as opposed to artifacts). Coming on-line multiple turns later seems like it might hurt a card that really needs to hang around for a while.

Check out RBM's post over in the 'cool control decks' thread! Totally a home run. Any opinion on the arts? I'm liking the drama in the launch party version, but should I break from the OG???

 

[Eric Chan]

I'm going to be the party pooper for this one, but Obelisk of Alara did stone nothing for us while it was in our cube, despite the high density of fixing available. Perhaps we're spoiled by planeswalkers these days, but this essentially reads as a six-mana walker with an upkeep of . I'm not even sure that the abilities would amount to anything special on an actual 6 cmc planeswalker; I would argue that the versatility spread across five abilities doesn't make up for the lack of power, nor the expense in maintaining it. Six mana spells that don't do anything the turn you cast them really need to pack some punch to make them worthwhile, but sadly, Obelisk doesn't quite have it.

It's essentially a value engine more than a win condition, but in that role, Staff of Nin does a more productive, albeit boring, job.

 

[sigh]

In even an incrementally slower environment I could see it doing more than nothing, but definitely important evidence to keep in mind! I know I have won at least one IRL cube game using it, in someone else pile-o-best-cards. I think it gets a loooot better if you recur it, a la the sample gifts pile I made in the control deck thread:

• Daretti
• Chromatic whatever
• E wit
• obelisk

Edit: I also have some newer, Johnny-er players who probably would love seeing that sort of stuff. And I love enabling sweet interactive high level deck building. Lenticular design at its finest.

 

[genericco]

"Stone" nothing. That's good.

 

[RavebornMuse]

vs.

OG art, it's very imposing. It looks like something that Villain is gonna lose to, which seems fitting. The latter is a little too "generic stormy" for me.

Re: it being too slow, I think it's definitely a bit on the slow end of things, but that's kind of the point. A nice, slow value engine for the Johnnies to build around. I know with my drafting base, if I force anything once and have any success with it, people will try to do the same thing within the next few drafts - I just have to make something look cool, and the kids will pick up on it. People want to do weird new things in a limited environment; showing off the creative potential of a buildaround always gets bites over here. Obviously YDMV (Your Drafters May Vary), but I think the abilities look pretty great, and they certainly work at my cube's power level as I'm shifting it towards now. for a Lightning Strike to the face every turn? for Invigorate every turn? for Crippling Fatigue every turn? for Chaplain's Blessing every turn? The looter ability isn't really the best, grant you, but the other 4 are very valuable over here. I can't count the number of times I've stabilized a control deck with Elspeth Tirel just +2ing for a few consecutive turns; life gain isn't usually work a whole card, that's true, but in the Obelisk's case, there's more up for offer than 5 health a turn. I certainly wouldn't recommend it, because the card is very sensitive to format power level and the health of control generally, but I think it has a lot of potential if your group likes to dick around with weird buildarounds, which is thankfully what my small clump of dinguses enjoy.

 

[shamizy]

Could work in lower powered cubes, but I could never run that card. It's just not enough impact from a six mana investment that I need to keep feeding for actual results.

 

[safra]

It did nothing here too.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I wonder how that card would fair in a bounce land CIPT environment?

The bounce lands give some opportunity to do ramp plays with untappers to get it out earlier, and incentivises splashes with the bounce lands (so that you get enough of them to rely on the untap plan).

A CIPT format is also probably slower.

 

[sigh]

I think the right bounceland format would definitely be a great place for it! Also I'm not terribly surprised by the people who've said it would/did do nothing. For one I'm seeing cohesive aggro packages all around... my singleton format almost by nature has more trouble with super-fast aggro, So I see it meeting what seems to be the only requirement: format speed

Also, I still maintain that it's one of the coolest looking daretti targets around!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Waaait a minute... It just dawned on me, what if the correct answer is...

+

??? Right? If your mana rocks naturally ramp you into the fifth mana you need for your wrath, isn't that something that would incentivize playing those mana rocks? When you're cubing with 4 cmc wraths and 3 cmc rocks, as I am, what reason do you have as a control deck to play the mana rock? It doesn't get you anywhere!

Well... After a few solitaire test drafts (and matches) under my belt, I can confirm that my flash of insight feels like a good one! In fact, I've made a few more changes that have been accidentally good for the 3 cmc mana rocks. Pod decks had too few targets up in the curve. I added only a handful, but the difference is noticeable. The addition of Crux of Fate demanded more dragons, so I've added Kokusho and Keiga back in, and they're happy to get into play off of a 3 cmc mana rock. I've also added a few custom Eldrazi cards (one 3 drop, one 4 drop and one 5 drop). You have to play them slightly off curve if you use the mana rocks, but they're a good source of colorless mana, so it helps a bit. Last but not least, now that there's more rocks, it's easier to get two or three, which makes it easier to sculpt your game plan around the accelleration.

 

[Eric Chan]

vs.

 

[ColonelSanders]

vs.

In general, I would lean towards worldbreaker. I guess if there are a lot of planeswalkers you might to want to blow up, that's a point in sylvan's favor, but I don't think the free forest is a big deal once you've cast a 7 drop.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Sylvan Primordial vs. World Breaker

I have a hard time here evaluating these two. On the one hand, I feel like Sylvan Primordial is my favourite;
- ETB trigger > cast trigger
- , so it's less likely to be splashed for
- Better stats (barely)
- Draws a card (the forest) and functions as noncreature removal, so if it dies quickly, I at least don't feel too terrible
- If green has an issue it's typically a walled-off planeswalker, so I want that to be an option for blowing up

The sticking point for me on which one I'd actually include would be up to:
- How strong my reanimator toolbox is (note that cast trigger on World Breaker, which is either a pro or a con), and:
- If I want to add some beefy reward to reanimator and ramp, or if I'm just looking to give something to ramp

Realistically I'd probably just pick Sylvan Primordial based on the superior art and the general lack of access to in my format, though.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

vs.

The creatures in the artwork had the sense to pose just right for a versus battle. Epic choreography!

 

[sigh]

v.

Edit: I do cheat a lil by having spawning in the mono section.... I'm leaning towards Reach, cuz its 1) cool, 2) synergizes with long-game based around extra/consistent lands as a resource. What are people feeling about Spawning nowadays?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm actually not sure these cards should be being placed against one another. Reach of branches is a solid value play, while spider spawning reminds me a lot of mystical teachings in my own cube (and I would recommend putting it in G/B). I also do think there is a reasonable power level concern with spider spawning.

Reach is a card that I would imagine being picked around the middle of the pack? Its obviously not a loud powerful effect, but is an easily supported value effect, making it a respectable selection if you are starting to settle in on a strategy.

Spider spawning is a card that should wheel heavily (at least at first) due to the multi-color requirements and heavy creature-centric graveyard commitment. Once you are further in a pack, and realize that you are going to have a lot of movement of creatures towards the yard, it starts to look like an ideal crowning effect that supports a strategy G/B naturally has been trending towards.

 

[safra]

In what world is Reach an earlier pick than Spawning? SS's floor is fine and its ceiling is extraordinary. Reach takes 15 mana before it's a compelling play and doesn't even block fliers, which G has real trouble with!

I'm happy splashing for either colour of Spawning, unlike the heavy green decks Reach goes in, where your lategame is Forest-go-Reach-repeat until you miss a land drop. A pair of Spiders blocks as a 2/4 anyway...

If you have a recursive green theme (it's the best part of the colour!) then getting not two Spawnings but 3+ is a far more impressive lategame imo. If you don't have a recursive green theme, what's Reach really doing for you?

Also, Spider Spawning is an iconic Limited card some of your drafters will flip over the first time they see it. Nobody has that attachment to Reach of Branches, and if they did I guess I'd get it, but I've never met that player. My friend Michelle hugged me when she saw SS in a pack.

Just my 4 cents.