Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, fair. Gravecrawler is an interesting creature, so a retrace version should be fine 
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Maybe a W&6 Enchantress walker would be cool too
Calix the Unrelenting 1GW
+1: Untap each enchantment and enchanted permanent you control.
-1: Reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put a creature or enchantment card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.
−6: You get an emblem with "Enchantment cards in your graveyard have retrace."
3
Calix the Unrelenting 1GW
+1: Untap each enchantment and enchanted permanent you control.
-1: Reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put a creature or enchantment card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.
−6: You get an emblem with "Enchantment cards in your graveyard have retrace."
3
Without hesitationGravecreeper
Creature - Plant Zombie
Gravecreeper enters the battlefield tapped
Retrace
2/1
I mean, I'd play that.
this is BROKENGravecreeper
Creature - Plant Zombie
Gravecreeper enters the battlefield tapped
Retrace
2/1
I mean, I'd play that.
Honestly, the Regrowth+Retrace is way more powerful than the Gravecreeper idea. Sure, the lil lad is gross with Skullclamp and Blood Artists etc, but so is every recursive 1-drop ever.
Regrowth+Retrace is way more powerful than the Gravecreeper idea. Sure, the lil lad is gross with Skullclamp and Blood Artists etc, but so is every recursive 1-drop ever.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That's mainly because Skullclamp is gross.Honestly, the
Hardly. Cards like Cult Conscript and Dread Wanderer are pretty much textbook examples of this type of design, and they haven't wrecked any format. This is only slightly pushed compared to those, and since lands in hand are a finite resource, this really should be fine.
Art link
Aww see now you broke Reaper King
2G for just a Regrowth is rough, I agree, but Bala Ged Recovery and Shigeki are proof that the effect is viable at that rate provided it comes with some amount of flexibility, which retrace provides.
I agree that this card is strong, but a lot of people like their customs a little on the juiced side. Only testing would show if this is too much. Maybe this is a good space for the classic 3 mana 3/2.
Those are very good examples to prove my point that it won't be more broken than the 2/1 that Karshtakavaar said here
Honestly, the
Bala Ged Recovery and Shigeki, Jukai Visionary are just barely okay and forgetable outside limited and low-low power.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
A recurring 3/2 is a lot stronger than a recurring 2/1. I would just keep it at 2/1. The reason it's good has nothing to do with the stats itself. Gravecrawler is easier to recur repeatedly and isn't breaking any formats.
This is decidedly not broken in any format, because discarding a land is not free. Typically, a) you want to play lands to have access to more than one mana, and b) you don't have an unlimited supply of lands in your hand. It's a good aggro tool, because you can spare a land or two to recur this a few times and keep pressure on the table in those kind of decks. Murderous Scarecrow is absolutely horrendous in control decks, however, because the last thing you want to do is throw away lands for a 2/1. As a control deck you a) probably have better things to do than deploy a 2/1, and b) typically never want to miss a land drop. I can't think of a single true control deck that would be interested in this.
There are some good interactions. The Reaper King can turn Murderous Scarecrow into a repeating Vindicate, but this requires you to play a 5 color 5 drop and a sac outlet, and you still need a bunch of lands in hand. All in all that's on the tame side as far as combos go, honestly, since there are combos that require less mana and colors and win on the spot in any format where The Reaper King is legal. There's also Skullclamp, which could potentially draw you the lands you need to recast Murderous Scarecrow. So much value! Except, is Murderous Scarecrow really the problem here? This also works with many other outlets, like Gravecrawler, a card I don't think anyone here would call broken, and that card doesn't require you to discard resources to play it! No, the common factor here is Skullclamp, which is a broken card.
I think that's a really cool feature of the card actually, that you can legitimately want to play this in some eg. BUG long-game deck as a recurring board piece you can keep out late game with all the extra lands you are drawing off your Thirst for Knowledges etc.
Kinda like a manland in the way it becomes an inevitability engine late game. Neat
Kinda like a manland in the way it becomes an inevitability engine late game. Neat
I agree with Onder. There is a pretty big limiting factor on replaying this card (needing the lands in hand), so any "broken" interactions are limited to the number of lands you can actually draw. That's probably not more than one or two at a time, barring some multi-card engine or Skullclamp Skulduggery.
I feel like this kinda overvalues Regrowth effects (and I say this as someone who loves combos that involve looping cards with Regrowth effects).Honestly, the
The thing about Regrowth effects is that they sacrifice mana efficiency for a second crack at a threat that your opponent has already dealt with. Like, to use your Planeswalker example, Liliana of the Veil is a strong play for
... but is it still a strong play for ? I'd lean towards "no".The only place where Regrowth effects see play are places where they're part of combo that lets you abuse them (like the classic Eternal Witness + Cryptic Command combo. or Archaeomancer + Ghostly Flicker in Pauper).
Maybe we're too used to different environments, but so many of my cube games do have a resource war element to them - not necessarily attrition, but knowing that you have to play around your or your opponent's outs.
Like mono red holding onto Magmatic Sinkhole to get that Exalted Angel, keeping up a counter going into a swing turn, knowing that you have to apply enough early pressure that their Resto is going to have to be a flash blocker rather than a value engine, forcing them to pop their Ratchet Bomb early or tick it up before your Siege Gang comes down, etc. Getting that one card off the board, or preventing it from coming down at all.
In that situation, having a repeatable way of rebuying a key card that you can pitch early to all the sick discard outlets we have access to, knowing it gives you a second copy of whatever sounds really strong. And you can even mill yourself to hell to set it up, without having to be as careful as you would if your recursion was an EWit or Regrowth. It's not the first Uro that kills you.
On the other hand, a 2/1 tops out as an early clock in most decks, gets chumped by x/3s all day, and needs a more specific set of cards to do anything degenerate - and even in those cases (Outside Skullclamp, which is gross anyway) is far more restricted by access to lands in hand. One turns every land you draw for the rest of the game into Elite Vanguard. The other turns them into Okos.
Like mono red holding onto Magmatic Sinkhole to get that Exalted Angel, keeping up a counter going into a swing turn, knowing that you have to apply enough early pressure that their Resto is going to have to be a flash blocker rather than a value engine, forcing them to pop their Ratchet Bomb early or tick it up before your Siege Gang comes down, etc. Getting that one card off the board, or preventing it from coming down at all.
In that situation, having a repeatable way of rebuying a key card that you can pitch early to all the sick discard outlets we have access to, knowing it gives you a second copy of whatever sounds really strong. And you can even mill yourself to hell to set it up, without having to be as careful as you would if your recursion was an EWit or Regrowth. It's not the first Uro that kills you.
On the other hand, a 2/1 tops out as an early clock in most decks, gets chumped by x/3s all day, and needs a more specific set of cards to do anything degenerate - and even in those cases (Outside Skullclamp, which is gross anyway) is far more restricted by access to lands in hand. One turns every land you draw for the rest of the game into Elite Vanguard. The other turns them into Okos.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I mean, we can agree to disagree, but I don't find your argument of "trust me, it's broken" very compelling for all the reasons I laid out. You haven't provided any examples of how the 2/1 is broken, nor have you provided any example of other recursive 2/1's historically being broken in (almost) all formats. One would think that Gravecrawler, needing only one additional zombie instead of a constant stream of lands in hand to recur, would have shown us all these broken interactions years ago, and yet... it never broke any format. It does see play in Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis decks, but I think we can safely assume that Hogaak is the broken card in this deck, considering that that's the card they decided to ban in modern when the deck got overwhelming there. Nowadays, Gravecrawler is restricted to Dredge decks (in Modern), in which it is just another cog in the wheel. I honestly can't see Murderous Scarecrow doing anything more broken than Gravecrawler.
"But unlike Gravecrawler, Murderous Scarecrow can block," I hear you say. So can Persistent Specimen, and it's not tearing up any formats. Sure, it costs 3 mana to activate, but you also don't have to discard a land to play it every time. Cauldron Familiar, now there's a recurring blocker that does see play, but not because it can block repeatedly, but because it can kill the opponent. I'm not convinced a 2/1 recurring blocker is better than, say, a Wall of Omens
Naah let’s be adults. No need to discuss it like that with such lengthy arguments over a design like this. The card is unprintable. I am not trying to make you specifically see the truth. Wizards won’t print it. If this was a custom card thread then we would have something to talk about. Custom cards everywhere these days. We're not going to talk about them in Fight Club.
Edit: I see what you mean with the 'Just trust me bro'. But on this one you're so far off the playing field that there's no way you're ever going to score a goal. If you need some arguments you can read the thread. It should also tell you something that Smithy calls it broken lol
Edit: I see what you mean with the 'Just trust me bro'. But on this one you're so far off the playing field that there's no way you're ever going to score a goal. If you need some arguments you can read the thread. It should also tell you something that Smithy calls it broken lol
Last edited:
Well, onder explained it quite good. How good is a 2/1 when you have to discard your land for it? A 2/1 is good at the early phase of the game, but often not good enough at the end. Discarding a land at the early phase of the game is painful, so it has that going against it. It is a real cost in the phase that matters and not good enough when the cost is low.Naah let’s be adults. No need to discuss it like that with such lengthy arguments over a design like this. The card is unprintable. I am not trying to make you specifically see the truth. Wizards won’t print it. If this was a custom card thread then we would have something to talk about. Custom cards everywhere these days. We're not going to talk about them in Fight Club.
Edit: I see what you mean with the 'Just trust me bro'. But on this one you're so far off the playing field that there's no way you're ever going to score a goal. If you need some arguments you can read the thread. It should also tell you something that Smithy calls it broken lol
A 2/1 for one with retrace is actually quite balanced.
Create a topic in the custom card thread if you want to talk about broken custom cards.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This perfectly illustrates the difference between Gravecrawler and the custom card. Whether you sacrifice the land or the Murderous Scarecrow, then retrace it, you're down a land card. Obviously losing a land in hand isn't the same as losing a land in play, though at turn 4, you will often have only one land in hand at most, which means you miss your land drop anyway if you retrace the scarecrow. Gravecrawler, on the other hand, can be recast as many times as you want, provided you control another zombie of course. It'll happily die to Smokestack and pop back up again without any loss of resources.
Velrun is right in one thing though, this discussion about a custom card totally hijacked a thread that is normally used for discussing the more worthy or appropriate inclusion from a set of real cards. Tears me up, really! It's almost as if the spirit of Riptide past has risen to teach us a lesson about true Riptide values!