General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Both! But if I had to pick, Jori En. Awesome card and a good incentive for building a decent curve 
I added Fact or Fiction because it's more splashable.
It has a lot more play to it also, because you will get value out of it no matter what, but the opponent gets some info and decisions.
Dig Through Time is just bonkers every time.
Fact or Fiction might come on turn 4, DTT probably a bit later ?
Both cards are bad if your environment has a lot of aggro though.
It has a lot more play to it also, because you will get value out of it no matter what, but the opponent gets some info and decisions.
Dig Through Time is just bonkers every time.
Fact or Fiction might come on turn 4, DTT probably a bit later ?
Both cards are bad if your environment has a lot of aggro though.
I run both FoF and Dig, my group has been enjoying both and they're both way powerful. FoF is always sweet and a fun card to play, especially since we have people with friends to call specifically to sort piles for them. We have interesting people.
Dig is absurd. It puts all the other big draw spells to shame. If you lose after it resolves, nothing was going to save you anyway.
Dig is absurd. It puts all the other big draw spells to shame. If you lose after it resolves, nothing was going to save you anyway.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
both or neither
if you must choose, I like Fact
if you must choose, I like Fact
In my experience, fact tends to be exciting for both players. Dig is good (well, just better in a lot of cases), but doesn't lead to the minigame of sorting piles.
Drown slaughters aggro and tokens, pretty blank vs bigger decks. BSZ is generally more solid, does more work late game and is a fair adjustable sweeper, unlike Toxic Deluge. Also combos with Dusk Urchins.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Drown. All CCX spells are annoying, and permanent counters are actually a huge downside, plus you can't regrow/snapcaster/delve it.
Also, scry is amazing
Also, scry is amazing
Aoret
Developer
Drown. All CCX spells are annoying, and permanent counters are actually a huge downside, plus you can't regrow/snapcaster/delve it.
Also, scry is amazing
Holy shit. TIL that BSZ is permanent counters. I played nearly a year of standard with the spell....
Anyway, I actually like it better than Drown in Sorrow for the reasons that Tzenmoroth lists
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm with Chris on this one.
I thought Black Sun's Zenith would be the be-all end-all, but in practise, we found it unwieldy and clunky. Four mana to do an Infest impression is a really bad rate, and even a six mana Wrath isn't all that impressive anymore.
If Languish is an option you're not already running, my vote would go there. That card's now my favourite black sweeper - offers lots of interesting set up and pay off scenarios, but doesn't automatically get you out of every jam, either.
If Languish is an option you're not already running, my vote would go there. That card's now my favourite black sweeper - offers lots of interesting set up and pay off scenarios, but doesn't automatically get you out of every jam, either.
My take is that infest effects are either really good or they don't do shit. So swingy in that way is how I would describe them. And this goes for burn as well IMO. And that's why I sort of like the scaling ones because they are never useless even if they are not cost effective. I value flexible removal over cost effective removal personally.
FWIW, I really like BSZ. Permanent -1/-1 counters is a unique effect that screws over persist (a mechanic that could use hate). It also shuffles your library. And you can redraw it later, so it's like having more than one removal spell in your deck while only costing you a single deck slot. It's a very good control card. I even really like it in aggro/control shells as an "oh shit option". Sometimes you need a reset button when bad things happen and this works great for that, being able to sweep tokens easily or even a field of fat if you have the mana. Again, the flexibility is highly valued here.
BSZ also has a really sweet full art promo, so if you like pimp and dig full art in particular, this card really deserves consideration.
FWIW, I really like BSZ. Permanent -1/-1 counters is a unique effect that screws over persist (a mechanic that could use hate). It also shuffles your library. And you can redraw it later, so it's like having more than one removal spell in your deck while only costing you a single deck slot. It's a very good control card. I even really like it in aggro/control shells as an "oh shit option". Sometimes you need a reset button when bad things happen and this works great for that, being able to sweep tokens easily or even a field of fat if you have the mana. Again, the flexibility is highly valued here.
BSZ also has a really sweet full art promo, so if you like pimp and dig full art in particular, this card really deserves consideration.
I agree with this. Cards like drown in sorrow and anger of the gods are mediocre against a lot of midrange decks, but they absolutely crush aggro. Normal board wipes are at least more generally playable in the decks that want them. If you want black/red to be more viable control colors, less conditional sweepers, or higher cost, value oriented removal has worked well in my experience.
Easy BSZ for me. I don't think my cube needs a -2-2 effect at all really. Toxic Deluge is better than both of these
Also how about Mutilate ?
Sigh, in your cube it would also seem like BSZ because you already have Flaying Tendrils, why would you want 2 of the same thing just for killing small dudes ?
Also how about Mutilate ?
Sigh, in your cube it would also seem like BSZ because you already have Flaying Tendrils, why would you want 2 of the same thing just for killing small dudes ?
My cube tutor is out of date, it's back to Drown in Sorrow for that spot. I'm trimming that effect down a little, so I'm figuring out which is liked more. Getting a lot of BSZ votes
Toxic deluge is too strong, imo. And if I fiddle around with another 4 mana spell, why not just Damnation, amirite
Toxic deluge is too strong, imo. And if I fiddle around with another 4 mana spell, why not just Damnation, amirite
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I love these types of more conditional sweepers, as they have more play to them. I think it makes more sense to have them in red though than black, because red cards can already fluctuate so efficiently between being control pieces or reach, and red can always combine effects to take out a larger target. It adds some unique personality to the color, and those conditions feel like they balance out for red's flexibility. Most importantly, they add depth to red's color pie.
The black ones feel a little awkward within the context of what black is generally trying to do, though I like the -1 -1 effects if you are running indestructables.
The black ones feel a little awkward within the context of what black is generally trying to do, though I like the -1 -1 effects if you are running indestructables.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I support double damnnation. Hard wraths really open black up to being an actual control color
vs.
Did Jori En actually turn out to be a good card? Or is it just a bad Sea Gate Oracle in practice?
real good, i've mostly drawn 2+ cards if I can untap with her