General Fight Club

I added Fact or Fiction because it's more splashable.
It has a lot more play to it also, because you will get value out of it no matter what, but the opponent gets some info and decisions.
Dig Through Time is just bonkers every time.

Fact or Fiction might come on turn 4, DTT probably a bit later ?
Both cards are bad if your environment has a lot of aggro though.
 
I run both FoF and Dig, my group has been enjoying both and they're both way powerful. FoF is always sweet and a fun card to play, especially since we have people with friends to call specifically to sort piles for them. We have interesting people.

Dig is absurd. It puts all the other big draw spells to shame. If you lose after it resolves, nothing was going to save you anyway.
 

Aoret

Developer
Drown. All CCX spells are annoying, and permanent counters are actually a huge downside, plus you can't regrow/snapcaster/delve it.

Also, scry is amazing :p

Holy shit. TIL that BSZ is permanent counters. I played nearly a year of standard with the spell....

Anyway, I actually like it better than Drown in Sorrow for the reasons that Tzenmoroth lists
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I thought Black Sun's Zenith would be the be-all end-all, but in practise, we found it unwieldy and clunky. Four mana to do an Infest impression is a really bad rate, and even a six mana Wrath isn't all that impressive anymore.

If Languish is an option you're not already running, my vote would go there. That card's now my favourite black sweeper - offers lots of interesting set up and pay off scenarios, but doesn't automatically get you out of every jam, either.
 
I already run languish. This is a battle of the "infest effect", kinda. Guess drown in sorrow keeps its spot. I'm ok giving slower decks a way to police over extension from aggro.
 
I don't see how it is more swingy than red sweeper effects, tbh. Anger of the gods and radiant flames can both deal more damage. Is it the color?
 
My take is that infest effects are either really good or they don't do shit. So swingy in that way is how I would describe them. And this goes for burn as well IMO. And that's why I sort of like the scaling ones because they are never useless even if they are not cost effective. I value flexible removal over cost effective removal personally.

FWIW, I really like BSZ. Permanent -1/-1 counters is a unique effect that screws over persist (a mechanic that could use hate). It also shuffles your library. And you can redraw it later, so it's like having more than one removal spell in your deck while only costing you a single deck slot. It's a very good control card. I even really like it in aggro/control shells as an "oh shit option". Sometimes you need a reset button when bad things happen and this works great for that, being able to sweep tokens easily or even a field of fat if you have the mana. Again, the flexibility is highly valued here.

BSZ also has a really sweet full art promo, so if you like pimp and dig full art in particular, this card really deserves consideration.
 
My take is that infest effects are either really good or they don't do shit. So swingy in that way is how I would describe them. And this goes for burn as well IMO. And that's why I sort of like the scaling ones because they are never useless even if they are not cost effective. I value flexible removal over cost effective removal personally.


I agree with this. Cards like drown in sorrow and anger of the gods are mediocre against a lot of midrange decks, but they absolutely crush aggro. Normal board wipes are at least more generally playable in the decks that want them. If you want black/red to be more viable control colors, less conditional sweepers, or higher cost, value oriented removal has worked well in my experience.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I love these types of more conditional sweepers, as they have more play to them. I think it makes more sense to have them in red though than black, because red cards can already fluctuate so efficiently between being control pieces or reach, and red can always combine effects to take out a larger target. It adds some unique personality to the color, and those conditions feel like they balance out for red's flexibility. Most importantly, they add depth to red's color pie.

The black ones feel a little awkward within the context of what black is generally trying to do, though I like the -1 -1 effects if you are running indestructables.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
My cube tutor is out of date, it's back to Drown in Sorrow for that spot. I'm trimming that effect down a little, so I'm figuring out which is liked more. Getting a lot of BSZ votes

Toxic deluge is too strong, imo. And if I fiddle around with another 4 mana spell, why not just Damnation, amirite

I support double damnnation. Hard wraths really open black up to being an actual control color
 
Top