General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Are these different enough to justify running both? If not, which one to pick?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Are these different enough to justify running both? If not, which one to pick?
I've found the instant speed of Hero's Downfall to be important for the versatility of my black removal suite, and Downfall certainly is better in the
controllish deck that also runs counterspells. Ruinous Path is cute, but ultimately was mostly used as a sorcery speed Murder. This may depend on your environment however, as my cube is definitely not in danger of running too many instant removal spells at the moment. If you already run a lot of instant speed removal, RPath may be a nice alternative to curb the efficiency of your removal a bit while also having a nice upside in the late game.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I double hero's downfall. I call it the black oblivion ring, but I'm mostly lying
I've also seen Ruinous path awakened 0 times, so I guess if you want to nerf downfall...
I've also seen Ruinous path awakened 0 times, so I guess if you want to nerf downfall...
I double hero's downfall. I call it the black oblivion ring, but I'm mostly lying
Still lying, but not as much
Hero's Downfall for more ~elegant~ card 2K16
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Choose Two
I gather you are looking for a 5 cmc flyer in white? Reveillark is my first pick easily. Karmic Guide is a lovely card if it weren't for that silly protection ability. I loathe permanent protection abilities like that because they can randomly shut down an opponent's deck, it's probably my least favorite mechanic ever. In this case it's on a permanent with echo, so it might be not as bad, at least you're trading 10 mana and two turns for that road block, and it's relatively small as well at 2/2, so you might simply be able to attack past it. I do want to note the interaction between Reveillark and Karmic Guide. You can build yourself a nice infinite loop if you have a sac outlet handy. Glory requires you to jump to quite some hoops to get to the good part, which is annoying, and then the "good" part involves blanking your opponent's entire deck + making your whole team unblockable. Yeah, sounds like fun times! I guess Karmic Guide is my reluctant second pick.
100% include Reveillark
I'm running Karmic Guide and Reveillark currently. Lark is always great fun, it needs no more words as I think it's universally loved, but I want to talk about Guide.
I got over my protection-loathing for Guide and have been really pleased so far. A 2/2 flier for 10 mana, even divided over two turns, is a fair price to pay for prot-black imho. Mono-B isn't something I've seen in nearly a year here, and I already promote tension around removal by having skewed lower power with it across the board. If someone wants to sink 10 mana into a 2/2 flier and win the game with it because Villain can't break through or can't race it, I'm fine with that; it's a T6 wincon that needs pants to be a real threat (barring ramp), so I'm okay with that niche scenario playing out once every hundred or so games.
Karmic Guide is no Master of Waves. If you want to try it, I recommend it, because it's a very cool effect, and I can say that, for my group at least, most decks are 2-3 colours anyway and can handle (or ignore) a 2/2 flier.
I got over my protection-loathing for Guide and have been really pleased so far. A 2/2 flier for 10 mana, even divided over two turns, is a fair price to pay for prot-black imho. Mono-B isn't something I've seen in nearly a year here, and I already promote tension around removal by having skewed lower power with it across the board. If someone wants to sink 10 mana into a 2/2 flier and win the game with it because Villain can't break through or can't race it, I'm fine with that; it's a T6 wincon that needs pants to be a real threat (barring ramp), so I'm okay with that niche scenario playing out once every hundred or so games.
Karmic Guide is no Master of Waves. If you want to try it, I recommend it, because it's a very cool effect, and I can say that, for my group at least, most decks are 2-3 colours anyway and can handle (or ignore) a 2/2 flier.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The net increase you get in fun from karmic guide outweighs the occasional negative experience with protection, I find.
I think this is important to consider in evaluation of "random protection" clauses. Is it one color? Is it a unique effect? Having a blinding hatred of protection is fine, but maybe a little overzealous sometimes.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I wouldn't call it a blinding hatred, I do cube with Mother of Runes after all
(though that card simply asks for two removal spells mostly)
Dom Harvey
Contributor
(aka 'Altar? I hardly...')
If you want to do the kinds of silly things described in the tokens combo thread, which of these is better? Phyrexian Altar is better for chaining spells together on one turn, Ashnod's Altar lets you ramp into really big stuff (Secure the Wastes/a Blaze of some kind, Cyclonic Rift, Ugin, whatever). I'm leaning towards Phyrexian Altar but could be convinced.
Man, I genuinely have no clue with that one. I think this is a case where you have to run them both for a bit and keep the one that feels better.
(aka 'Altar? I hardly...')
If you want to do the kinds of silly things described in the tokens combo thread, which of these is better? Phyrexian Altar is better for chaining spells together on one turn, Ashnod's Altar lets you ramp into really big stuff (Secure the Wastes/a Blaze of some kind, Cyclonic Rift, Ugin, whatever). I'm leaning towards Phyrexian Altar but could be convinced.
I'm guessing they're both actually trash in cube, but if you can pull it off, then super kudos to you.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I ran three copies of ashnod's altar at one point, to encourage token sacrifice interactions: never did anything, due to all of the sequencing requirements.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I have seen Phyrexian Tower do useful things, but that one is "free" to run, as it were. I think you're going to be hard pressed to make a 3 mana artifact that requires you to give up board presence for mana work.
I'm usually the first to encourage people to go deep, but I just don't see either altar making the cut in anything close to a traditional cube. They're both relics from the days when creatures were weak and spells were strong. Using bad creatures to power up better spells made a lot more sense then. You'd need a heavily curated cube to make losing the board presence of the creatures you're sacrificing generally a worthwhile trade.
I'd agree that you'd have to set out to build an environment where it's viable. Maybe it's an archetype in some sweet combo cube concept out there.
I'm experimenting with phyrexian altar, still very much in the embryonic planning stage.
I think it's closer to cube worthy than Ashnod's. The idea is there's a home for it somewhere in a black sacrifice combo deck, usually paired with gravecrawler or blood artist or both. Diregraf Captain as the third card in a gravecrawler combo for instance. The problem there is the missing combo pieces like Captain or Pawn of Ulamog are not especially cube worthy either.
The other concept was Su-chi and Nim Deathmantle for infinite mana or infinite death triggers.
Again not independently worthy cards, certainly not candidates for adding a second copy, which you'd probably need to make the combo deck happen. Blood artist is probably a card I could double up on and feel good about it if I were serious about supporting Altar
I'm experimenting with phyrexian altar, still very much in the embryonic planning stage.
I think it's closer to cube worthy than Ashnod's. The idea is there's a home for it somewhere in a black sacrifice combo deck, usually paired with gravecrawler or blood artist or both. Diregraf Captain as the third card in a gravecrawler combo for instance. The problem there is the missing combo pieces like Captain or Pawn of Ulamog are not especially cube worthy either.
The other concept was Su-chi and Nim Deathmantle for infinite mana or infinite death triggers.
Again not independently worthy cards, certainly not candidates for adding a second copy, which you'd probably need to make the combo deck happen. Blood artist is probably a card I could double up on and feel good about it if I were serious about supporting Altar
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler is already plenty strong without going infinite.