General Fight Club

Velrun

Velrun

I want to pick all three because all three do what I want black walkers to do.

I would 100 % keep Death’s Majesty because
1: It is fair.
2: Creates tokens for Orzhov or Abzan tokens.
3: Creates tokens for Aristocrats.
4. Self-mills for reanimator and so many other niche strategies likes lands/artifacts/enchantments.
5: Has an ultimate that doesn’t end the game but swings in your favor.

I would maybe cut Chain Veil Lilli due to power levels but if I could I would keep all 3.
 
shamizy

shamizy

I'm a fan of all three of them, but I'm leaning towards Last Hope and Veil. Veil is powerful and has a unique effect, while Last Hope is just efficient as hell and slots into a ton of decks as a great utility card. I actually think Last Hope is better than Veil for my cube at least. Death's Majesty is nice support for reanimation and other synergistic archetypes you might be pushing, but it has more of a niche than the other two by itself. If you've got a fatty in the grave to cheat back, that's great, but otherwise it's kind of just a slow engine that takes a while to get going. Also there is the difference between 3 and 5 mana to deploy. It really depends upon your environment.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Oh yeah, I'll chip in a +1 for Flip Lili as well :) It's been sweet in my cube as well, though it usually doesn't end up in the same kind of deck as Liliana of the Veil.

I know Liliana, the Last Hope has been very frustrating in a friend's cube, and his power level was a bit higher than mine.
 
ravnic

ravnic

I'm a little late, but I wanna add something to the discussion of cool white 6+ drops:



That card has been really good for us. The creature stealing appears more often than one might think, and it is a really nice safety for all your other creatures. It also allows for synergies with sac outlets and stuff like that. Really satisfying how the ability works with vigilance too. And it is a snow angel, how cool is that?

If your powerlevel is a little lower than avacyn and sun titan, this card would deserve a test at least.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Onderzeeboot said:
Oh yeah, I'll chip in a +1 for Flip Lili as well :) It's been sweet in my cube as well, though it usually doesn't end up in the same kind of deck as Liliana of the Veil.

I know Liliana, the Last Hope has been very frustrating in a friend's cube, and his power level was a bit higher than mine.
Click to expand...

Probably the difference between having 1-drop mana Elves and not ;)
 
Peter LaCara

Peter LaCara

ravnic said:
I'm a little late, but I wanna add something to the discussion of cool white 6+ drops:



That card has been really good for us. The creature stealing appears more often than one might think, and it is a really nice safety for all your other creatures. It also allows for synergies with sac outlets and stuff like that. Really satisfying how the ability works with vigilance too. And it is a snow angel, how cool is that?

If your powerlevel is a little lower than avacyn and sun titan, this card would deserve a test at least.
Click to expand...
You know, all this time I somehow never realized that Valkyrie can steal any creature that dies, not just your own. I'll have to reevaluate her based on that.
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

vs

+1 toughness ended up being surprisingly relevant to me, but my drafters seem to ignore the fact. The fact that this doesn't trigger on artifacts also didn't seem to bother my drafters, but I've seen some missed opportunities.

I can see myself turning a blind eye to the fact since prowess in WR would trigger on artifacts more than in U, but still, I don't feel the archetype is weak, and I'd like to include the stronger card if possible.
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

CaptnIrony said:
The +1 toughness is really that important?
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Against most flying tokens yeah and also I like the aesthetics of the same p/t! One toughness really sucks against like, lingering souls, and two toughness becomes 3 toughness after one instant/sorcery which lets it survive a lot more than the 2 toughness wondscout gets after its trigger.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Aston said:
Is there any reason to play Seacoast Drake over Glint-Nest Crane or Supreme Phantom? Also, Omenspeaker.
Click to expand...

Tons of arguments now that you ask. The most dominant ones are:

1. Better cards are not always better for an environment. By making one card better you also make all other cards relatively worse.

2. Signaling. If your players see a Phantom they might (should!) think there is a Spirit tribal theme in the cube. If there isn’t then you are actively hurting the draft experience.
 
Aston

Aston

CaptnIrony said:
Glint-Nest Crane feels bad if you miss.
Click to expand...


Seacoast Drake is a Glint-Nest Crane you miss on every time.

Velrun said:
Tons of arguments now that you ask. The most dominant ones are:

1. Better cards are not always better for an environment. By making one card better you also make all other cards relatively worse.

2. Signaling. If your players see a Phantom they might (should!) think there is a Spirit tribal theme in the cube. If there isn’t then you are actively hurting the draft experience.
Click to expand...

I can see argument 1 but I don't think that in this case either of the cards I mentioned were so much better than Seacoast Drake that it would impact the format that much. It would have to be a very low power level, lower than most retail drafts, before I was happy to put a 1/3 Flying with no other abilities in my deck, but one that cantrips some of the time is a lot more palatable. The spirit lord was probably a bad suggestion, as you say it might indicate a theme that's not there. If there are a few spirits it's probably very playable though - I think you'd only need about 5 others in the cube if 1/3 Flying is baseline playable.
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

Aston said:
Seacoast Drake is a Glint-Nest Crane you miss on every time.



I can see argument 1 but I don't think that in this case either of the cards I mentioned were so much better than Seacoast Drake that it would impact the format that much. It would have to be a very low power level, lower than most retail drafts, before I was happy to put a 1/3 Flying with no other abilities in my deck, but one that cantrips some of the time is a lot more palatable. The spirit lord was probably a bad suggestion, as you say it might indicate a theme that's not there. If there are a few spirits it's probably very playable though - I think you'd only need about 5 others in the cube if 1/3 Flying is baseline playable.
Click to expand...


Ask your drafters about it after the game, they don't end up equivalent.

For the second part, while 6 spirits in the cube might be enough to be playable, I can see a draft ending with "So I started picking up spirits, but there were basically none." which, like above, ends up feelbad.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Aston said:
Seacoast Drake is a Glint-Nest Crane you miss on every time.



I can see argument 1 but I don't think that in this case either of the cards I mentioned were so much better than Seacoast Drake that it would impact the format that much. It would have to be a very low power level, lower than most retail drafts, before I was happy to put a 1/3 Flying with no other abilities in my deck, but one that cantrips some of the time is a lot more palatable. The spirit lord was probably a bad suggestion, as you say it might indicate a theme that's not there. If there are a few spirits it's probably very playable though - I think you'd only need about 5 others in the cube if 1/3 Flying is baseline playable.
Click to expand...


I am repeating myself now but here goes:

It all depends on which experience you want to give your drafters. They mainly have the responsibility to try and break your cube in order to win as much as possible and you mainly have the responsibility to give the players a fair and safe experience while providing as much fun and tactical elements as possible. The last part is debatable.

I you make one card better, then you are indirectly making all other cards worse. It doesn’t matter if the card is a lot or a little better. That is a choice and it is an argument against not always picking the best card for the cube. The other option is power max.

Captnlrony wrote exactly what I wanted to elaborate about signaling.
 
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