General Fight Club

Featherhall

Featherhall

Erik Twice said:
A note: Something I do dislike about Dire Fleet Daredevil (and actually also about Abbot of Keral Keep) is that it's not a "real" two-drops. As in, you need mana to use their abilities so they don't actually allow to curve out or stabillize on the first few turns. Besides being quite fun in draft, it's one of the reasons I'm looking into it for cube. Having a 1/3 body that provides value over time is pretty comfortable.
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Rasmus Källqvist said:
I've actually slotted Snapcaster in as a 4-drop in my lists before because of this very reason!
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Ugh, this "triggered" me for whatever reason. Must be due to my insomnia...
This reminds me of a statement quoted by another cube enthusiast that I try to follow:

“Randy Buehler was running the FFL at the time, and he gave me a deck to play. In it were four Grizzly Bears. I didn't think anything of it at the time. I then went on to go 4–0 that week. I was the only person with an undefeated record.
During my last match, Randy watched. At some point late in one of the games, I played my Grizzly Bears. After the match was over, Randy informed me that the Grizzly Bears weren't actually Grizzly Bears. They were proxies for Kavu Titan. Armed with this information, the next week I went 2–2. Suffice to say that the R&D guys thought this was the funniest thing ever. The lesson I learned was the importance of using the Kavu Titans as 2/2s. When I was aggressive with Kavu Titan, my deck performed much better. When I waited to maximize the Kavu Titans as 5/5 creatures, I lost much of the aggression of my deck and thus some of its power. Week 3, I went 4–0 again. - Mark Rosewater”
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This resonated with me a lot when I had time to design my cube, and hell, when I use to play Abbot of Keral Keep back when I did play Standard - while nice to get those additional abilities/triggers, when you are curving out or being aggressive, playing them as two drops are more than acceptable. Abbot is a fine 2-drop, not amazing, but in an aggressive tempo/spell matters/burn deck, having him come down on turn two, then turn three swing for 3+ power is still decent. Same with Direfleet Daredevil- a 2/1 First Striker on turn two on its own is fine, and does well with equipment or various other buffs going forward throughout the game. Using Snapcaster Mage as another example - it's just as serviceable as a Ambush Viper (though, admitting, Snapcaster Mage is not an aggro card, so not the best example) if you are on an aggressive bend.

I guess what I'm rambling about is that I think it's counter-intuitive to state these kinds of two drops are not true two-drops because you cannot use all of the abilities of a card. I think it's best to look at them as "Two-Drops-with-additional-upside-later-in-the-game". I think any other mindset is marginalizing the cards unfairly.

...Er, anyways - um, I do vote for Burning Prophet if you are going midrange/controlling though. Getting added value per spell cast throughout the game is solid (plus that card and Spellgorger Weird have been Beast Mode for me in WAR drafts, so chalk this up to recency bias).
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

Featherhall said:
I guess what I'm rambling about is that I think it's counter-intuitive to state these kinds of two drops are not true two-drops because you cannot use all of the abilities of a card. I think it's best to look at them as "Two-Drops-with-additional-upside-later-in-the-game". I think any other mindset is marginalizing the cards unfairly.
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I slot my cards into the place where they'll actually get played. No one in my playgroup with a decent curve plays snapcaster at turn 2, and most worthwhile cards to flashback costs at least 2. To properly inform myself if people can draft decks that have a good curve, and that they'll play cards according to that curve, I will slot things into where the cards are most likely to be played. I play roar of the wurm as a four drop as well, because that is the casting cost that is most used in actual play.

I'd view the snapcaster case as a card with "anti-kicker", you can cast it for cheaper without the effect but most people will play it 'full price' with the effect.
 
Featherhall

Featherhall

Hey, you do you Rasmus - I'm not here to tell you how to design your cube. Also I completely agree with you on Snapcaster Mage, as his design was not meant for aggression in mind (Prowess and First Strike are more potent than Flash, which strikes me as more defensive), thus why I stated it was not a great example. Though in a pinch you could use it on turn 2 to slam a slower opponent, if it was really needed. All I'm saying is with regards the two-drop red cards, and similarly designed cards in general, I think there needs to be more consideration in mind than just "If I cannot use all the text on this card until later in the game or I have more mana, then it's not a true two-drop".

Like I said, if I come off as aggressive, it's the lack of sleep. I'm sorry.
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

Featherhall said:
All I'm saying is with regards the two-drop red cards, and similarly designed cards in general, I think there needs to be more consideration in mind than just "If I cannot use all the text on this card until later in the game or I have more mana, then it's not a true two-drop".
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Aah, but by going by my method here I would slot the discussed red cards in 2 cmc, because most people would (and should) play them on-curve if they don't have anything better to do. I just think snapcaster is actively worse if played too early, but given the context of the current "fight club"-fight snapcaster might be a bit of a red herring.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Rasmus Källqvist said:
Aah, but by going by my method here I would slot the discussed red cards in 2 cmc, because most people would (and should) play them on-curve if they don't have anything better to do. I just think snapcaster is actively worse if played too early, but given the context of the current "fight club"-fight snapcaster might be a bit of a red herring.
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If I'm facing an aggressive deck, you can bet I slam that Snapcaster to block their 3-power 2-drop as soon as it attacks. Well... Unless it's Porcelain Legionnaire of course...
 
Velrun

Velrun

Vryn’s Prodigy and Kasmina from me.

Looters are good for the game because they help early game mana screw and late game mana flood. Both Jace and Kasmina are looters. Jace also has an interesting mini game because it can transform.
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

Narset looks pretty boring for Cube to me, while Mu Yanling doesn't look like a joke with a defensive +2, a strong -3 and an I-win-ultimate. Pretty busted.

Kasmina is one of those WAR 'walkers I wanted to test for a long time. Not having a game-winning ultimate and some not being able to up their loyalty lets them look like more interactive enchantments. That's cool.

I like OG Looter and that cool guy a lot more than the hybrid version Baby Jace, while Underworld Connections is a more interesting way of constantly drawing cards than Jace Beleren, and WAR Jace isn't as cool as LabMan as it also is a strong value engine that may win you the game itself which is too strong for my taste.
 
japahn

japahn

Yeah, Narset feels like it's punishing me for playing Magic. Ugh.

Between Kasmina and Mu Yanling, it depends on your power level, really. Mu Yanling is much better.
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

What I like about Kasmina is they fabulously bridge the gap between early game and late game. You get to stem early aggression with 2/2s and looting sets up your hand to hit land drops or mitigate flood, and find key threats to enter the late game with an advantage. It's a play-pattern that feels good to execute without the threat of running away with the game (unless you're proliferating).
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

vs

Which one do you prefer? Reclamation is better for aristocrats but Ritual can also be played in Midrange/Control while you certainly won't fire off a Carrion Feeder + X tokens = draw x and gain x life 'combo'.

vs

I somewhat like Demonic Rising, as it's not good in creature heavy lists, but you also need to constantly keep that one creature at the end of your turns. Killing one of the two demons isn't enough, it will rise again as you then still have exactly one creature on the battlefield. It looks pretty fun, but maybe too much like a build-around and only for a small amount of deck types. The Altar, on the other hand, asks for resources every player has at some stage of the game. The cost of creating one 5/5 flyer is a bit high, though, that makes it look a bit weak to me.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Ritual goes in more decks, is cheaper and has more play as it works both when destroying other player creatures and your own. I'm also not sure Aristocrats wants to be BG and get up to 5 mana even if it wins the game.

As for the later, I'm not fond of either card. They are very much the kind of card that can do a lot but will most often than not be worse than tapping with a straight drop like Sengir Vampire. And most cubes won't run Sengir Vampire.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Here's another one of my own, to add to Mondschwein's question: Which one is less powerful?

or

Or, in other words, which one of these is the less dumb Overrun variant?
 
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