General Fight Club

GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

I think Craterhoof has a much higher chance of immediately ending the game, while being much worse in a losing position. Giving Vigilance, Trample, and a fixed buff makes End-Raze Forerunners really powerful in any deck that can cast it or cheat it into play. If you cast this with another creature in play and a tapped out opponent, you are very likely go from losing to winning or from any decent position to signing the match slip. The card isn't terrible even without any other creatures. On the other hand, Craterhoof will DEFINITELY end the game upon hitting in the battlefield if you have 3 other creatures in play and your opponent has no response. But without anything else in play, it's a sad, wimpy 5/5 for 8 as soon as you pass the turn.

So, if board stalls, few wraths, and lots of tokens are hallmarks of your environment... well, actually, they would probably both be GRBS then. But the closer you are to that environment, the better Craterhoof gets, and if you really have to work to maintain a board state, Forerunners have a significant edge.
 
japahn

japahn

GalacticTraveler12 said:
So, if board stalls, few wraths, and lots of tokens are hallmarks of your environment... well, actually, they would probably both be GRBS then. But the closer you are to that environment, the better Craterhoof gets, and if you really have to work to maintain a board state, Forerunners have a significant edge.
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Can it really be GRBS at 8 mana though? You need either a very slow environment, or a way to cheat it into play, or else it's just a ramp payoff far from GRBS. I've never tested it though.
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

I doubt it would be statistically GRBS, but if it ends the game every time it comes down, it's very quickly going to become infamous among your players. Perceived unfairness is still going to affect your players, even if pressure from aggro or strong answers from control would actually keep it in check. You're probably right that it's only slow environments that have to worry about it though... I know it'd be too strong in my format, so I was speaking from personal experience there. Maybe I shouldn't use GRBS so lightly, but I think it's useful to communicate the potential for them to be problem cards in a certain environment, especially because he expressed concern with their power level in the OP.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

japahn said:
Can it really be GRBS at 8 mana though? You need either a very slow environment, or a way to cheat it into play, or else it's just a ramp payoff far from GRBS. I've never tested it though.
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They would be cheated into play (via Sneak Attack, Reanimator) or ramped.

GalacticTraveler12 said:
I doubt it would be statistically GRBS, but if it ends the game every time it comes down, it's very quickly going to become infamous among your players.
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Ultimately, it's a I-win button. The sensation is that you have been playing a nice game, then your opponent plays this and the game ends.

So yeah, now that I've written that, I don't know why I'm trying to make them work.
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

I'm debating the "overrun" slot myself and know that I don't want Craterhoof or the Forerunners.

What I'm debating is
vs vs

I think I don't want the Garruk since I already run Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and Garruk Relentless. 3 Planeswalkers seems like a lot and I like the versatility of the other Garruk (removal, tokens, tutor, potential overrun).
However, Wildspeaker belongs in more decks than the other 2 cards which seems great.

Stampede is fun since you can try and really maximize the +X/+X and while Decimator is expensive, I play multiplayer so the games are slower.

Writing this makes me think that I could add Wildspeaker and replace Relentless with Master of the Wild Hunt and keep my green removal/token maker and not have too many walkers.

All opinion welcome so I can finally make up my mind!
 
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shamizy

shamizy

Garruk Wildspeaker is one of the most well-designed planeswalkers of all time. He does everything you want in green by providing you ramp, a sizable body to protect itself, and can also represent a win-con with the Overrun ability. I much prefer him over the other options listed but I'm also pretty biased since he's one of my favorite green cards to play.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

I heavily dislike Garruk's untap ability because it halves its cost in the same way Treachery's untap ability makes it free. Like I mentioned in another thread, I still don't know why Wizards finds the "free mechanic" acceptable in Planeswalkers but Garruk is not the only offender.

Beyond that, he is well-designed as a Planeswalker card. He combines three effects that are powerful but hard to justify slots on (Overrun, Call of the Herd, Worn Powerstone) in one card, which I think is one of the better ways to design planeswalkers. He also doesn't have very high starting loyalty, which was a feature of the first planeswalkers that made them easier to kill (with Bolt or one good swing) that newer designs seem to have abandoned. His card advantage also reduces his loyalty, which is another piece of design that has been abandoned.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Erik Twice said:
I heavily dislike Garruk's untap ability because it halves its cost in the same way Treachery's untap ability makes it free. Like I mentioned in another thread, I still don't know why Wizards finds the "free mechanic" acceptable in Planeswalkers but Garruk is not the only offender.
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Comparing Garruk's untap ability to Treachery doesn't feel right to me, in the same way that comparing Pore Over the Pages to Frantic Search because they both untap lands is silly. A two mana rebate is not nearly as powerful as a full refund of mana invested. I've seen Garruk's untap ability used plenty of times on the turn it was cast, but it was never ever as backbreaking as following up a Treachery with another impactful five drop.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

The issue I have with the design is not that it makes the card as powerful as Treachery or as weak as Great Whale, but that the card undercosts itself as part of its effect. I don't think a 4 mana Planeswalker should have 2 mana rebate, even if it's not as powerful as a full rebate would be.

One of the issues I have with Planeswalkers as a whole is that they provide tempo, enabling you to both have the initiative AND a recurring source of value. Garruk Wildspeaker is not as egregious as other cards of his type are, but I do wish he didn't allow the player both to play him and another card on the same turn because he discounts itself.

Beyond that and the usual griveances about Planeswalkers as a card type, he's a good card. Not overpowering given the typical cube level, versatile and adds play.
 
genericco

genericco



I have high hopes for reclamation. Yeah, it's a lot of mana, but it challenges you to make a deck that's all about making tokens and dusk legion zealots and killing them off for value. That strategy is already a favorite line of attack of mine for base black decks with access to blood artist variants.

Moldervine could be an engine piece for the B/g/x version, if it's not too slow.

Deathreap hardly excites. Without the upside of going completely off, it's a card you wish were harmonize 99% of the time
 
shamizy

shamizy

I wouldn't cube either at my power level, but Reclamation is more enticing than Deathreap by far. For most cube matches, you want your bang for your buck right away with card draw effects. It's part of why something like Phyrexian Arena doesn't see a whole lot of play in a bunch of lists but one-shot effects like Painful Truths or Night's Whisper will crop up time and time again. Having more options available to you ASAP is much preferred.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Hmm, but triggering from opponents guys dying is also a huge point. i mean, if you build around it, Reclamation is probably better, but Ritual seems better in decks not build around sacrifice.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Jason Waddell said:
Is this a CBS Survivor reference?
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Sorry, no.

It was just a cool phrasing ;) The original walkers were suppose to be released in Future Sight which would have made people remember the Time Rift and The Mending which is the whole reason why we have walkers in the game. Instead internal testing within Wizards of the Coast had them postponed from Future Sight to Lorwyn. This resulted in almost everyone agreeing that the Time Spiral block was a failure (because their big finale and the whole reason for the block was left out) and Lorwyn was a succes because Time Spiral had almost no money stables and Lorwyn had a ton.

Of the five Lorwyn planeswalkers there were a lot of discussion who would stand the test of time. It was most people’s belief that Jace and Garruk would. Now Garruk is the only one people even consider adding to their decks if they are going for a power max build :p

I have only ever heard of CBS’s Survivor via The Office starring Steve Carell and co :)
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

Rushing River is a nice card, I like the design. I also thought about Rescind just because of Cycling but I find UU in the mana cost to be a bit much. If your fixing is good enough, you could go for it.

Expel from Orazca looks very unappealing to me.
 
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