General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Eight
I was planning on running Living Twister plus one of the enchantments, seems like Molten Vortex. I wish Borborygmos Enraged was good enough, because gruul lands and ramp are going to overlap heavily, but I don't see it doing enough for eight mana. I still have one from the DGM prerelease, and I'm going to keep it in the back of my mind.
You'd be surprised how often that guy actually get hard casted! I love that guy.
Borborygmos Enraged is plenty good enough. Hardcast plenty often, because the lands deck often builds up as a long-game deck, not going for a fast kill. That grindy-ness gives time to get him out. I would 100% recommend running him. It is also true that he makes a juicy reanimation target, and lands deck + reanimation can give rise to some spicy Jund decks.
you get the picture
you get the picture
Seismic Assault, no question. Vortex seems easier to play, but I've found it very awkard in practice.
The RRR on Seismic Assault is kind of scary. Molten Vortex also requires heavy red, but it can function on RR. It's more expensive in total at 3+ activations though, which is where you want to be. Thoughts?
1. Seismic Assault has one hurdle: You need to pay RRR once. After that, it's pure gravy. You can slap it down, drop two lands to get rid of a threat and keep working on.
Vortex keeps that hurdle every turn. Paying RR every other turn to use it is a bigger requirement than it appears. Often, it makes you choose between using it and casting other spells. And that's very annoying and makes the card much weaker.
2. Vortex is very colour intensive. Let's be honest, the difference between RR and RRR once on a card like this is very small. I haven't had a harder time playing Seismic Assault than I have playing Vortex, despite what it might seem.
3. Vortex is not faster. In my experience, you don't want either of these cards when you are curving out. The reason is simple: If you are throwing away lands, you cannot curve out. You don't want to throw away your mountains if you want to play them.
I mean, you are playing Lands!
4. Both cards are parasitic. No, you are not going to play Vortex in aggro because you have better things to do than pay 3 cards and RRR to deal 4 damage.
Vortex keeps the hurdle every turn. And there are many turns in which paying RR is in direct conflict with doing something else. You may need those mountains to play a creature or play Life from the Loam. There are many times in which you could activate it but shouldn't be
Note that I run 20 Fetches, 20 Duals and 5 Canopy lands.
That is excellent mana, and a quite high power level per cubetutor too. I totally agree in your context, where Vortex competes with Sneak Attack and other beefy power cards. Really depends on how games play out. What's your average toughness? How action-dense are turns? Vortex can also drop for RRR and deal with a 3-4 toughness threat and carry on with life. If your mana and/or board continue to be stressed turn after turn after that, then it drops off fast. However, if dealing with that threat was a landmark in the game, great.
Modern is a great example of this. I run Assault there, and wouldn't consider Vortex. Mana is good enough, and action is dense enough.
At lower power levels, many decks don't even do anything for sometimes 2 turns. Dropping a 1 mana enchantment in that null space of the first or second turn can be a critical step in setting up your defensive framework.
I might be dropping the mono-R enchantment entirely, to be honest. Living Twister and BoBo play so well as controlling/finishing cards in the deck, it might be an obsolete slot in some ways. Or switching it to another role, like
Reformation seems an especially easy sell to the average joe thanks to the cycling built into the card itself.
Modern is a great example of this. I run Assault there, and wouldn't consider Vortex. Mana is good enough, and action is dense enough.
At lower power levels, many decks don't even do anything for sometimes 2 turns. Dropping a 1 mana enchantment in that null space of the first or second turn can be a critical step in setting up your defensive framework.
I might be dropping the mono-R enchantment entirely, to be honest. Living Twister and BoBo play so well as controlling/finishing cards in the deck, it might be an obsolete slot in some ways. Or switching it to another role, like
Reformation seems an especially easy sell to the average joe thanks to the cycling built into the card itself.
You make good points. My cube is also high power level with similar fixing (including 20 fetches, 20 duals, and 5 canopies). That makes me want to try Seismic first.
Still going with Living Twister, as it's good for lands.dec, gruulaggro.dec and landfall.dec
I also don't like that kind of effect on an enchantment, as I cut down on them due to missing interaction. Everything goes onto a stick, then I'll also have a higher density of creature removal, but also toned down in power.
I also don't like that kind of effect on an enchantment, as I cut down on them due to missing interaction. Everything goes onto a stick, then I'll also have a higher density of creature removal, but also toned down in power.
vs I make it harder for my group to draft 3+coloured decks, but if one is really pushing it, there should be some kind of reward (because it's not easy at all). Which one do you prefer? Personally, I find Kenrith to be a lot more interesting, but the Obelisk is not as fragile, which is why I prefer Obelisk.
My first instinct is that Kenrith might needlessly emphasis white? That isn't usually a colour that natively encourages 5 colours.
You're right and I already know about Golos, but I don't like the card, and it's not 5C which I want to reward but 3C+.
It's a little painful in cube slots, but I tried to find 10 shard/clan cards that mostly don't synergize with each other, but which have a tiny bit of synergy with their neighbours. it's an extremely demanding ask but here are my best combos:
Zur/Kestia, the Cultivator
Kaalia/1UBR Bolas/Sarkhan Unbroken/Broodmate Dragon
Kethis/
Dom Harvey
Contributor
If you want to reward 3+ colours (and believe that the more the merrier) but don't want to promote specific colour combos, the converge/sunburst cards may be up your alley? Crystalline Crawler is a favourite; Etched Oracle hasn't aged all that well but I still like it. Bring to Light/Exert Influence/Painful Truths/Skyrider Elf/Woodland Wanderer/Chamber Sentry all pique my interest but I'm not sure any one of them is a strong enough incentive
For specific 4c there's the Commander cycle of which Atraxa/Breya are the best and most rewarding
For Obelisk/Kenrith, I like Kenrith a lot more
For specific 4c there's the Commander cycle of which Atraxa/Breya are the best and most rewarding
For Obelisk/Kenrith, I like Kenrith a lot more
@ safra: that actually looks like an interesting take. I always avoided 3c cards as they usually only go into one specific deck and therefore are useless for the biggest part. having some kind of overlap so it's getting interesting for 4c decks actually looks like a nice idea. What I like about Kenrith/Obelisk is, that they fit into any colour combination (Kenrith needs white, but that's just a restriction of one colour). This means that it's much more flexible and thus should be drafted and played more often than those specific multicolour cards. I guess if your cube supports multicolour better than mine your idea looks pretty good, as the cards are more specific, but reward you more for drafting that specific colour combination.
@ Dom: yes, I find some of the Domain/Sunburst/whatever cards interesting, but am still unsure which of them are worth it.
Radiant Flames looks like the best, needing three colours for its full potential while also being playable at two colours.
Painful Truths looks boring to me, but obv is very playable, same is true for Woodland Wanderer.
Bring to Light looks very exciting, but I wonder if it's worth its cost. I guess if you have a lot of cards for 3 mana that are worth tutoring it could actually shine in the right deck.
Evasive Action and Tribal Flames look interesting, but I don't have shock lands in my cube which could be a reason why they wouldn't be all that great.
Chamber Sentry actually could be a very good guess, I'll definitely try. Thanks.
@ Dom: yes, I find some of the Domain/Sunburst/whatever cards interesting, but am still unsure which of them are worth it.
Radiant Flames looks like the best, needing three colours for its full potential while also being playable at two colours.
Painful Truths looks boring to me, but obv is very playable, same is true for Woodland Wanderer.
Bring to Light looks very exciting, but I wonder if it's worth its cost. I guess if you have a lot of cards for 3 mana that are worth tutoring it could actually shine in the right deck.
Evasive Action and Tribal Flames look interesting, but I don't have shock lands in my cube which could be a reason why they wouldn't be all that great.
Chamber Sentry actually could be a very good guess, I'll definitely try. Thanks.
In addition to Fountain of Ichor, I want one other cc3 mana rock. It should fix all 5 colors and have a bonus effect, but be cheaper than Coalition Relic and Chromatic Lantern.
Vessel has it's uses against several graveyard mechanics, but is kinda boring.
Mana Geode is solid, but probably never more.
Spinning Wheel is expensive, but for a bonus abilitx that's probably fine?
Banner seems good in certain decks, but maybe weaker in the usual decks, that want mana rocks.
Vessel has it's uses against several graveyard mechanics, but is kinda boring.
Mana Geode is solid, but probably never more.
Spinning Wheel is expensive, but for a bonus abilitx that's probably fine?
Banner seems good in certain decks, but maybe weaker in the usual decks, that want mana rocks.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I liked Heraldic Banner in testing, for what it’s worth, especially in decks that have some way to generate tokens in the late game.
Out of those, Heraldic Banner. Maybe Cultivator's Caravan?
vs. Preordain is too good, but I really like both of these. I'm sort of tempted to run both, but I don't want to go too heavy on 2 CMC cantrips.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Preordain is too good, but I really like both of these. I'm sort of tempted to run both, but I don't want to go too heavy on 2 CMC cantrips.
Yeah, I'm thinking about replacing all the one mana cantrips in blue with good 2 cmc effects. There's also...
Medomai's Prophecy played a lot better than I expected when I playtested it.
Preordain is too good, but I really like both of these. I'm sort of tempted to run both, but I don't want to go too heavy on 2 CMC cantrips.
That sound's like a good idea. I think it was Grillo that stated some while ago that blue 1 cmc cantrips put to much pressure on any other kind of draw effects in other colors (like green grave-impulses) to make it worth going for them. Running 2 cmc ones might open up room for draw effects in other colors to compete.