Card/Deck Format defining crap removal



This is a card I know some people have talked about very favorably, and I tried it out in my 4-man grid cube and it did really well in giving auras and combat tricks more breathing room. So now I'm hungry for more excellent crappy removal that helps shape the format really well by how lackluster it is and now much life it gives other cards that are interesting to play with but would otherwise be too much of a liability.

What crap removal do you run that change the your cube works?
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
People will balk when I say this but:



And their various enchantment Equivilents that I've mostly forgotten about due to young pyromancer :p

Sorcery is the biggest deal. I don't specifically thibk doom blade is a problem, but a lot of the auras you want to be adding are fine with a swing or two, which this helps immensely.

I wouldn't add stuff like Temur battle rage or wrecking ogre, since pump spells that one shot people seems unfair if there's no counterplay
 

Common theme is granting flexibility over raw power. I'm a big fan of this theory, using narrower or slightly worse removal to make out-temping an opponent a little more of a puzzle. Think it's a neat way to grow deep and fun decision making out of a simpler interaction (threat -> remove threat)
 
Team elegance is waiting for this:

Kill
2B
Sorcery
Destroy target creature.

I really like Tragic Slip as a removal spell. It's instant, but needs some setup and creates interesting play patterns that can be bluffed, played around and called.
 
I am on a xcc kick; removal spells with 2 of the same color of mana are my new jam. It helps if they are kind of expensive too.



Removal has been most enjoyable when it is defined by the threats it can't answer and the decks that cannot play it. Swords, Doom Blade and Lightning Bolt are pedestrian. Make way for the Carbonizes of the world.
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
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What's people's opinion on setting rules for what removal to include? I feel like you can find crappy removal either by its cost or its restrictions. There was a brief period until quite recently that WotC had almost all removal be like 4-5 cmc. I'm much happier now that sets have removal that's back to costing 2-3 mana.

Running 1-2 cmc with some pretty severe restrictions and/or at sorcery speed and then opening up much more for the 3-4 mana removal seems like a good way to not punish people too hard. I'm completely theorycrafting now, so how does the "win the game after turn 5" decks fair when the removal gets much more restrictive?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think Chris put it best

Removal has been most enjoyable when it is defined by the threats it can't answer and the decks that cannot play it. Swords, Doom Blade and Lightning Bolt are pedestrian. Make way for the Carbonizes of the world.

Stuff like gurmag angler being really good because most red removal in a hypothetical format caps at 4 damage, and black removal can't touch it due to non-black clauses. Removal might still be very efficient in that setup, but its value against any given board state changes.

Casting cost is different, and has a lot to do with balancing creature mana expenditures vs. spells: e.g. no one really wants to play 4-6cc non-good ETB threats into 1-2cc answers if there is any alternative (or maybe you do if you want that to shift the format impetus towards spells idk).
 
I definitely agree with this line of thinking. Cost is about balancing. That's development, and is used to make sure a format runs smoothly. Restrictions or flexibility/power tradeoffs are design, and that's how you can help make the format richer. (Not a black/white distinction, obvs)

One of my all-time favorite pieces of removal is a great marriage of the concepts

It's a great, dense decision point at any phase of a game, and it's cost is balanced by mana development and cube CMC. Love it.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I definitely agree with this line of thinking. Cost is about balancing. That's development, and is used to make sure a format runs smoothly. Restrictions or flexibility/power tradeoffs are design, and that's how you can help make the format richer. (Not a black/white distinction, obvs)

One of my all-time favorite pieces of removal is a great marriage of the concepts

It's a great, dense decision point at any phase of a game, and it's cost is balanced by mana development and cube CMC. Love it.

Had a thought about this: if a format makes removal more conditioned in whatever way, bounce starts to creep up in power level due to its unique role as an unconditional answer (even if just for a turn) which makes blue better, and also pushes smaller creatures and tempo strategies.

In old old school magic, bounce was never popular, despite the presence of unsummon, and fat juicy non-etb targets. No reason for that when your hard removal is so good: bolt and swords.

Maybe the thread needs to focus more on repeal type effects, that put a condition on bounce (here, at its most effective point: mana)?
 
Repeal isn't crap though. It's premier.

I'm curious about this, it's a premier what? Premier spell or premier bounce spell?

Had a thought about this: if a format makes removal more conditioned in whatever way, bounce starts to creep up in power level due to its unique role as an unconditional answer (even if just for a turn) which makes blue better, and also pushes smaller creatures and tempo strategies.

I think Theros was a pretty good example of that, no? Griptide was one of the better spells to pick up to interact with your opponent in that format because of how bad the removal was and the fact that you both were building voltrons.


There would have to be a lot of play testing with this stuff for me to get enough of a grip on the relationship between bounce and bad removal, but I think that maybe vapor snag is potentially really good in a format full of slower and more restricted removal? It would be one of the few ways to present a new threat while also removing a threat from the board state (again if only for that turn, but then you force the opponent to re-develop or play a removal spell).
 
In old old school magic, bounce was never popular, despite the presence of unsummon, and fat juicy non-etb targets. No reason for that when your hard removal is so good: bolt and swords.

Also consider how decks played out for many years. A lot of slower decks focused on one-for-ones with slower card advantage machines to get ahead. Faster decks had pretty low avg mana costs. Bounce is best when the velocity of a game leads the returned spell to not have a 'free' window of impact to be played again. I think the Magnivore decks with Eye of Nowhere or older vintage storm with Chain of Vapor really show how bounce was used most effectively prior to Vapor Snag in Delver.

In Limited, i really liked bounce in combat trick oriented formats. It was great in Khans and Theros (as mentioned).
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Repeal isn't crap though. It's premier. Instant speed, cantrips, targets any non-land permanent. Best case you get a blowout on the stack, worst case you can cycle it for minimal cost and some sort of value. I rate it and Impulse highly.

Thats interesting. I would rate it at more of a midling point for bounce, due to the increased mana investment. It really wants to go into a deck capable of generating mana, while most of the other options lack that conditionality, and its seems more like its competing for a control bounce slot (against cards like into the roil, which is probably overall the better modal bounce spell?)

These would be my top tier bounce spells:



Maybe unsubstaniate: haven't played with it enough to say.

After doing a gatherer search, I'm not even sure now what playable crap bounce would look like. Higher CC options like regress and resounding wave have been quite good (but than they can hit bouncelands when you are ahead so...), but going up to 4 or 5 mana seemed pretty bad for stuff like grasp of phantoms when I was doing it (those cards were basically unplayable when you are behind on board).

Sorcery speed for bounce seems like a big liability, unless it has some sort of kicker attached



And silent departure was always still really good for me; this is all unconditional removal at the end of the day, with only casting speed and CC to really play with.
 
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A nice spell, but not even close to 'crap removal'.


I'm having trouble figuring out what the definition of 'crap removal' -is- in this thread. I've seen:



All mentioned here, and I would put all of those at top-tier removal, with the possible exception of sunlance as middling tier...

bounce spells that I'd consider to be 'crap with upside' would be along the lines of:

 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I wouldn't take the term "crap" too seriously. Its going to be more:

1) mana efficient with reasonable conditions
2) mana efficient but moves slower.

Chris' definition that I quoted is a better metric to go by. "Crap" is always going to be format relative.
 
I wouldn't take the term "crap" too seriously. Its going to be more:

1) mana efficient with reasonable conditions
2) mana efficient but moves slower.

Chris' definition that I quoted is a better metric to go by. "Crap" is always going to be format relative.

Look at me, being Mr. Literal over here, haha. I think I get what you're saying. Let me lay some examples... let's do them within the color white:



This stands in for all the removal that is conditional upon attacking, with the exception of condemn, which is priced well below it's ability, mana-wise. What can this kind of removal in white do for your format? Well, it increases the power of red burn spells, for one thing, as these spells will rarely hit key utility creatures such as merfolk looter that your opponent controls. I am personally a very big fan of this downside, as it balances the benefits and pitfalls of red vs. white removal in an interesting manner. Red can target-burn small creatures, but cannot stop large ones. White can destroy any creature, but not utility ones.



This will stand in as an example of all Aura removal, although Pacifism would probably be a better universal example. I really like aura-based removal. Like kill shot effects, many aura-based removal spells lack the ability to remove utility creatures (with the exception of some of the better ones like faith's fetters, etc.) The efficacy of aura spells will depend on your format. A format with a lot of utility creatures/upkeep trigger trackers (dark confidant is an example of the second type) will see this removal as being less useful. Aura removal empowers utility creatures, just like kill shot effects. I in particular like certain auras that have wider applications, such as ghostly possession or vampiric link.



These two cards will stand in as examples of all removal that is conditional on P/T within the color white. These kinds of effects can act as a slider for the power of aggro in your cube. The more 'puncturing lights' there are in the cube, the worse aggro, as early attacking creatures are easily eaten. The more Smites there are in the cube, the better aggro gets, as the general removal is less effective at stopping early aggression.

It is worth noting that cards like puncturing light and Terashi's Verdict in general are considered to be very low power. They also empower pump spells, as pumping a creature becomes a way to counter removal, on top of getting more damage in.

---

These are just a few thoughts on some types of white removal that have glaring downsides. I'm typing this up in between shifts at work, so I'm sorry if my thoughts are a little disjointed. This makes me want to sit down and have a longer think about it, though, as well as doing this kind of thing for the rest of the color pie...
 
My thread title comes from volcanic hammer being a huge step down from lightning bolt.

Depending on the speed of the format, efficient bounce could be fine. I'm also thinking probably you could do with a mix? Settle at a level of crap that is at a desired level relative to the cubes threaths and then throw in some better spells that help guiding drafters by sticking out in power level.

This idea, then, would mimic how 75% power level or full power has bolt and swords to plowshares as it's power level bumps in terms of removal. But instead of swords it's vaporsnag or snap.

Edit: Got sniped by an excellent post by GiftsForgiven! Very nice way to demonstrate how white can follow the design idea of limiting the kinds of threat it can target.

I like the idea of thinking in terms of utility / non-utility creatures.
 
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