Froggy's 288

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Greetings, and welcome to the Riptide Lab thread for my cube! This is the second iteration of this main post, reflecting my updated design philosophies and goals. My cube is 288 cards, intended to be played with four players each using six packs of 12 cards, ending up with 72 card pools. Decks from the cube will often resemble constructed, fitting into broader macro archetypes (aggro, midrange, control, combo) and having high densities of important effects such as aggro one drops, removal, countermagic etc to allow for consistent decks. Decks are expected to be 3c, sometimes with a splash, but 5c decks are explicitly supported through cards like Niv-Mizzet Reborn and Bring to Light, and there is a high land density to support this fact.

Power level is an important motivator of the cube, as is creating a balanced environment, but it is not the sole factor in terms of includes - some cards (e.g. Gyruda, Doom of Depths, Inverter of Truth) are in there to instead push strategies and create interesting deckbuilding challenges that may not be as powerful as other archetypes, but are still fun.

The environment is intended to resemble 60-card constructed formats in a lot of ways, with many archetypes similar to iconic decks from these formats (e.g. Pioneer's Dimir Inverter and Niv to Light, Modern's Jund etc). I understand that my list is pretty different from a lot of the environments around here, but Riptide has served as a major inspiration for my entire cubing experience and I hope I can give back to the community think tank through the ideas present in my cube.

Archetypes:
URx Delver
Aggressive tempo deck seeking to prey on slower decks with fast clocks and cheap disruption.

Grixis Control
Grindy control deck that trades up in cards with 2-for-1s while defending a powerful threat.

Inverter Combo-Control
Base Dimir control deck that aims to take control of the game long enough to pull off a combo finish.

Bant Flicker
Slow midrange deck that aims to grind value with ETB triggers and blink effects to outlast the opponent.

Jund
Proactive midrange deck looking to trade removal against opposing threats and beat down with pushed creatures.

Esper Stoneblade
Reactive tempo deck leveraging powerful threats and disruption spells to keep opponents low on cards and board.

Mardu Pyromancer
Aggressive midrange deck attempting to gain value by negating the downside of discard and leveraging prowess threats.

Zoo
Agressive deck that uses overstatted one drops and watchwolves to beat opponents down as quickly as possible.

Esper Control
Grindy control deck utilising stack and board interaction before winning off the back of powerful planeswalker threats.

Sultai Control
Control deck leveraging broken threats and interaction to grind out the game through constant value.

5c Niv Pile
Controlling midrange deck playing the best interaction and threats possible with powerful rewards for playing 5 colours.
(Please note that more decks are definitely possible, these are just the ones I explicitly support)

If you have any questions, feel free to ask, and as always any drafts are greatly appreciated.[/SPOILER]
 
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Here's an archival post of some minor changes primarily for my own purposes

Out:
Shatterskull Smashing
Raging Ravine
Faithless Looting

In:
Vraska, Golgari Queen
Soul-Guide Lantern
Sword of Light and Shadow

Nothing super special here, currently deliberating putting in support for an Artifact Blue deck, but that probably won't pan out. Regardless, these changes are just some last minute cuts of filler cards I don't like that much for other filler cards I like marginally more as I prepare to proxy up the list and hopefully get some drafts in. I plan to write up some 'archetype guides' for my players at some point as well, which I will likely post here
 
What catches my eye here is the sheer number of picks.

When you draft 6 packs of 12, you have 72 cards in your pool, right? If you're maindecking say, 33, that's a 46% maindeck rate. This is a dials that I haven't tinkered with much - most I changed was drafting 3 16-card packs. I mentioned how it's one of the fundamental boundaries of limited design in https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/making-cuts-when-you-love-everything.3314/#post-98466

Doesn't running that high a pick count incentivize hate drafting since you have so many picks? Does it feel close to a rotisserie draft? Do players find it hard to cut down to 40 cards? Doesn't a solid pool of "unplayables" form that have close to 0% maindeck rate?

I can see the advantages of being able to run sideboard cards, utility lands, rarely played build arounds, archetype bridges, and so on, but I've always thought that if you have a pool that large, only the best cards will get played and there will be lots of picks that are irrelevant decisions and cards you read just not to play them.
 
First off, thank you for looking at my cube haha

I would argue that in a high fixing environment like mine, generally it'll be more like 35-39 cards maindecked, but I can seee your point in that case. However, I have found that instead of encouraging hate drafting, the larger pools instead encourage sideboarding and make deckbuilding legitimately difficult, something that is a good fit for my playgroup.

I haven't observed the formation of a pool of "unplayables" at all, which is likely due to the fairly small power band of my format. Cards are generally all on the same power level, and while there are outliers generally they are spread out across the archetypes and in small enough number that the redundancy matters - I run a large amount of burn, cantrips, removal etc as they are effects many decks are in the market for, so while some will end up in sideboards that's a necessary sacrifice to ensure that all players can pick up appreciable amounts of these vital effects while still including a variety of threats and supporting archetypes.

However, a big part of my format is tweaking your deck based on the matchup during sideboarding - tuning both the number and exact types of removal and burn based on the size and frequency of opposing creatures, switching out the threats in favour of ones that are more suited to the specific matchup, and so on. In addition, there are some sideboard cards, which supports this philosophy.

Because decks are generally based on redundant effects, it is also quite hard to hatedraft - I don't run combo, or more specific/gimmicky synergies, so generally it's pretty difficult to cut an opponent off a particular effect to a point where it's actually effective, and there are usually enough cards you would be interested in playing that you don't want to waste picks on potentially hatedrafting an opponent. Sure, you can take a Grixis control player's Kess, Dissident Mage, but there are enough quality threats that it's not really going to screw over their deck.

So while I can see where your arguments against bigger pools come from, personally I find that they aren't really prevalent in my environment.
 
I am unsure if this is traditionally how y'all do it, but I'm going to be proxying up my list over the coming week in preparation for finally being able to draft in paper, and I would love any comments/suggestions/questions/critiques of the list for before I get it up in paper
 
To be honest, I'd love to help, but this is so out of my knowledge sphere that I can't make any meaningful suggestion or critique. I'm up for testing it on Cockatrice, if that helps. Usually, playtesting is what brings up the best data.
 
I'm in the same position as japahn, but I'll comment anyways :p

- Is there a reason for the low number of 1CMC mana dorks? I counted 3 (with Wild Growth). I would imagine either you need more or you can maybe skip them altogether.
Elvish Reclaimer seems like it could fit with all the fetches, Omnath and the Titania and the fact it can be pretty beefy for zoo too.
Side point, your mana dorks tap for multiple colors, but you chose Wild Growth instead of Utopia Sprawl. Any reason?

- Both recruiters seem low impact for their high CMC in your cube. I'd rather see something like Faithless Looting to go with your spells matter stuff and random cards like Jolrael. Although I could see the White one being valuable to fetch Soulherder and set up a chain.

- Any thought for Unearth as a cheap way to recur a powerful threat and double spell?

- Is the card disadvantage from Frantic Search too much? It really works well with the spells matter and rewards you for planning ahead and keeping lands you might otherwise play.

- With such a cheap curve, could a card like Showdown of the Skalds shine as a way to refill the hand for zoo and randomly Jeskai control?

- Esper Charm seems pretty lackluster for a 3 color card. Is it a signpost for the Esper control decks?

- In the same vein, Bedevil is one of your only 3 mana removal spells. It has a heavy color requirement also. Does it play well?

That's it. Feel free to ignore these as they are coming from someone with 0 knowledge of how your games play out (typing this sentence out, I question why I answered here at all. Too late!).
 
I think there’s too much top end for how few drafters there are. A bunch of 4 mana things can probably go as drafters can expect to find the beef they need even with much lower counts and they straight up don’t need much to begin with. I’d like to see more cheaper utility cards replace them, stuff like lightning helix. Also I know you said you don’t want to support fast blue midrange but a fair few cards for that still remain, shit like dragons guard elite, gurmag, ethereal forager, etc seem kind of homeless given the lack of surrounding support, I’d cut these baneslayers too and just work in more value midrange cards or strong flexible utility cards like cling to dust or more archetype support like a 2nd white sweeper to round out those slots. Btw without fast blue keep an eye on control and multicolor value pile as I think in its absence it’s matchup tables might be too advantageous vs the field as your only poor matchup remaining is zoo and even that isn’t *that* unfavorable unless you give that deck some busted cards like bushwhackers, Boros Charm and Atarka’s Command to cheese some more games
 
will type up a proper response when I have more time and come to a more concrete decision, but I'm going to look at re-including fast blue because a) I'm indecisive and b) I want to test the GQ based mana denial
 
the GQ esque mana denial can still be dumb (that's why I run it in my cube), but it only punishes the greediest of the greed lords who dont run any basics (or have terrible draws with all of their basics but w/e that's magic) but I personally value the format diversity more than sheltering my players from the occasional low agency game as at this power level I think to some extent it's just kind of what you sign up for, but also decks should be lean enough to be able to recover from getting stone rained more often than not. Getting stripped is brutal when your core gameplan involves curving up to 5/6 mana or whatever but if you can do your decks thing (or most of it) off 3 lands then its pretty rare you get completely locked out.
 
So, I haven't touched this thread for a while, and tbh, I haven't touched my cube either. I felt burnt out, overwhelmed and insecure over my design decisions, so it just kept being shunted lower and lower on my mental to do list.

But, a couple days ago, I had a hankering for cube design, and I started a short lived project I tentatively nicknamed the Stress Cube. It was simple, really - just a place for me to do stuff I wanted to do and found fun, instead of the overly derivative mess that was my current list. I had silly things like Gyruda, Obosh and Yorion, and reanimator as an archetype, and while the list was never finished, it resonated with me, and I came to an epiphany.

"Things I Find Fun" shouldn't be a side cube, it should be my primary list - there's no sense in aspiring to craft the perfect, balanced environment when I'm not having a good time with the environment. So, I went to work, and I refurbished my cube. First off, I reincorporated Delver style decks - It's an archetype I simply adore, and while it's match ups aren't ideal I decided that was a sacrifice I was willing to make in favour of improving my cube. Second off, I included some companions - I currently run four, and am debating adding three more as a trial of sorts, but I haven't decided yet. Even if they are potentially more powerful than other parts of the environment, I like the cards and the deckbuilding challenges that come along with them. Third, I incorporated the Thassa's Oracle + Inverter of Truth combo. It's still in a bit of a trial period, but so far I've liked it a lot.

The most important change though, is a shift in design goals - balance is no longer the primary priority, although it's still important, because I found that in pursuit of an ultimate flat power band environment, I wasn't having all that much fun. My favourite deck was out of the format, and the more silly (but somewhat power appropriate) stuff I wanted to include were mentally forbidden, and generally it just wasn't a list I liked. So, while power level and balance are still important, the new primary factor dictating my environment is fun.

I'm not going to put together an exact changelog right now, although if anyone is interested please let me know. I also plan to refurbish, update and generally improve the original post of this thread to be more in depth about the various decks that can emerge from my cube and my design philosophy at a later date, ideally soon.

To those who actually read this post, thank you for listening to my brain vomit. In retrospect, I realise this is probably just basic stuff to a lot of you, but I thought it would be handy to chronicle my cube journey here.
 
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gave it a test drive on cc and it definitely looks fun! i went for a Bant pile (snappy, dragonsguard elite, some white stuff) splashing red for Omnath, but it’s very hard to fight CC bots for fixing, so i probably wouldn’t have ended up maindecking him.
 
Glad you had a good time! Yeah, the CC draft bots really aren't that great. Site is great, but the playtesting could use some work. Deck still looks sweet though.
 
I really like this new update Froggy! A lot of the new cards look really fun, and you don't seem to have thrown balance out the window to acheive that goal, something which I find very difficult to execute well.
Image.ashx
I don't have any experience with the U/W cards you listed, but I have considered including this at several points in my Cube's history. I really like the way this card plays in constructed, and I think it would port well into fast cubes.
 
We fired over the course of the week! Was a very good time, and got some good testing in. Unfortunately the decks got shuffled in so i can't provide decklists, but we had 5c Niv (my deck, 2-1), Temur Delver (2-1), Esper Control (0-3) and Grixis Inverter Control (2-1). Main feedback I got from players was that Tainted Pact felt too good, and the companions were awkward. As such, I'm swapping pact for a second inverter, removing Obosh (Gyruda is my pet card, sue me) and adding some mh2 cards too!

Full Changelist

In:

Prismatic Ending
Subtlelty
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Priest of Fell Rites
General Ferrous Rokiric
Out of Time
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Inverter of Truth
Delver of Secrets
Tourach, Dread Cantor
Dragon's Rage Channeler
Ignoble Hierarch
Verdant Command
Territorial Kavu
Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis

Out:

Obosh, the Preypiercer
Sunblade Elf
Wrath of God
Extus, Oriq Overlord
Burst Lightning
Journey to Nowhere
Lazier Goblin
Power Word Kill
Arcum's Astrolabe
Chromatic Star
Jace, Memory Adept
Tainted Pact
Symmetry Sage
Timeless Dragon
Recurring Nightmare
Sea Gate Stormcaller

New MH2 cards are generally all good, nothing super notable there. Timeless Dragon was profoundly uninteresting, so Elspeth is coming back in. Symmetry Sage becomes a second Delver, and Tainted Pact becomes a second Inverter. I have a friend who hates Jace, so he's getting trimmed, and otherwise it's mostly just slightly excess removal and underwhelming cards making their way out. Wrath of God is temporarily becoming Out of Time. I don't know if this change will stick, but it's one I want to test.
 
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I think the card can do some very hot stuff - imo it's either the best white wrath or unplayable garbage, and I'm hoping it's the former
 
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landofMordor

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"Things I Find Fun" shouldn't be a side cube, it should be my primary list - there's no sense in aspiring to craft the perfect, balanced environment when I'm not having a good time with the environment.
This should be every cuber's motto. It's good to have a reminder of the most basic -- and most important -- of all design lessons.
Brainstorming pushing UWx tempo some more with the introduction of Rishadan Dockhand



anyone have experience with any of these?
Spell Queller is definitely playable. 3 is a lot of mana, but it's a 2(ish)-for-1 that is evasive and can trade up on mana. I play it and I like it, but I'm not ever thinking like "oh man spell queller?! time to put on my UW blinders" like I would be for a true power outlier. Gets better if you're playing Vials and/or CoCo, obviously.

Mariner is also okay out of 10. Giving Ward 1 to all your stuff is good enough to warrant testing, IMO.
 
Ty for the comment! I've temporarily shelved my intended pushing of Coco decks and UW tempo as MH2 spoilers come out, but you've definitely given me some food for thought!
 
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