Card/Deck Green Aggro

We've been thinking about how best to aggro in green and we came to a strange conclusion that I'd like to bounce off other people to see if anyone else thinks we're on to something.

The naive (without being derogatory) approach is to add last pick cards like Jungle Lions and Wolf-bitten Capitve. But, that is going to entice precisely no one in our experience.

So we thought of something different: what if we put in Burning-Tree Emissary, Gaddock Teeg, Flinthoof Boar, Lotleth Troll, Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, etc. So you are forced to choose green and another color -- but you were almost certainly going two color anyway.

The downside is that no one goes into a color combination and some cards get last picked. Which is exactly the same thing that happens with the cards they're replacing (Jungle Lion et al). Only now there is a legitimate upside as opposed to a shoddy 1 drop at the end of the rainbow.

It would probably throw the guild system into havoc but we've never been too fond of rigidly adhering to that in the first place. It would also probably mean jumping through some classification hoops to maintain a semblance of numerical color balance. We don't think numerical color balance is the end all/be all but it needs to at least past the eyeball test. 35 cards in green and 45 cards in blue probably won't do, even if the justification is that "green has a bunch of two color aggro cards"

If anything, I think it might be worth bucking the mentality that gold cards have to be major draws into a guild to justify their inclusion. That might be true for the splashier cards, but its also undeniable that a two color aggro decks will be better with guild support as appropriate. In a way this mirrors the implicit Cube debate over power cards vs mana curve and tempo.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
We've been thinking about how best to aggro in green and we came to a strange conclusion that I'd like to bounce off other people to see if anyone else thinks we're on to something.

The naive (without being derogatory) approach is to add last pick cards like Jungle Lions and Wolf-bitten Capitve. But, that is going to entice precisely no one in our experience.

So we thought of something different: what if we put in Burning-Tree Emissary, Gaddock Teeg, Flinthoof Boar, Lotleth Troll, Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, etc. So you are forced to choose green and another color -- but you were almost certainly going two color anyway.

FWIW I run all of the latter cards (Burning-Tree through Kird Ape) and none of the former (Jungle Lions and Wolf-Bitten Captive).

As far as classification goes, everything I have to say on the subject is found in this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-declassified-information/
Regarding green aggro, I always have to ask: what are we trying to achieve? I am in no means trying to push a mono-green or even primary-green aggressive strategy, but have always seen it as a great splash color for cards like Rancor, Bloodbraid Elf, etc.
If you have sufficient fast mana fixing you can support fun 2-4 color aggro decks that splash for fun cards and attack with unique cross-color synergies.

I think what you want to look at as a designer is what you gain by pushing aggressive strategies in green as opposed to other colors. I don't just want the same effects I get from white but with a green card border. We don't need to do it just because it's different. Regardless of cube size, in terms of design space, "you have to cut a card to add a card". Why are we cutting non-aggro cards for aggro cards? Is there something missing from our environment? Is it more fun? Are green midrange and ramp still sufficiently represented after these changes?

I've had good experience with your ideas and think you chose solid cards for your examples.
 

CML

Contributor
I support this, Cube needs multi-colored aggro to be well-balanced IMO. Jungle Lion is a good example of a card so laughable that it serves the purpose of showing how absurd it is to push this theme in that way. I do kind of like the Captive, though. My one-drop section:

Experiment One
Deathrite Shaman
Deathrite Shaman
Dryad Militant
Dryad Militant
Loam Lion
Loam Lion
Kird Ape
Kird Ape
Skyshroud Elite

Also it's worth noting that in every Constructed format, most Green aggro decks have relied on t1 acceleration too, so ~10 1-drop accelerants is not a bad place to be in a 405 I've found (mana dorks are always high picks)
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Some changes I made in my Cube that incidentally let green aggro become viable:

- Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard + 2 Dryad Militant
- Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves/Avacyn's Pilgrim + 2 Noble Hierarch +1 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Burning-Tree Emissary
 
FWIW I run all of the latter cards (Burning-Tree through Kird Ape) and none of the former (Jungle Lions and Wolf-Bitten Captive).

As far as classification goes, everything I have to say on the subject is found in this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-declassified-information/
Regarding green aggro, I always have to ask: what are we trying to achieve? I am in no means trying to push a mono-green or even primary-green aggressive strategy, but have always seen it as a great splash color for cards like Rancor, Bloodbraid Elf, etc.
If you have sufficient fast mana fixing you can support fun 2-4 color aggro decks that splash for fun cards and attack with unique cross-color synergies.

I think what you want to look at as a designer is what you gain by pushing aggressive strategies in green as opposed to other colors. I don't just want the same effects I get from white but with a green card border. We don't need to do it just because it's different. Regardless of cube size, in terms of design space, "you have to cut a card to add a card". Why are we cutting non-aggro cards for aggro cards? Is there something missing from our environment? Is it more fun? Are green midrange and ramp still sufficiently represented after these changes?

I've had good experience with your ideas and think you chose solid cards for your examples.

G/W has a distinct feel in a powered Cube IMO with disruptiveness when you have cards like Gaddock Teeg, Voice of Resurgence and Qasali Pridgemage. In general, we like almost every <3 drop but feel that non Knight of the Reliquary 3s (like Loxodon Smiter) are pushing things too much.
 
Some changes I made in my Cube that incidentally let green aggro become viable:

- Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard + 2 Dryad Militant
- Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves/Avacyn's Pilgrim + 2 Noble Hierarch +1 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Burning-Tree Emissary

If you look at the stats, it appears that many Cube designers are such slaves to the "guild system" that ~100% include Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard while only ~90 have Dryad Militant. That is the height of insanity.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
There was a guy on MTGS who kept Lions over Militant on the grounds that he didn't want to upset his colour balance and green aggro wasn't a supported theme in his Cube anyway. It's just baffling how people can think like that.
 

CML

Contributor
i think smallish gold sections are probably fine (though it's not my preference) but lots of high powered fixing is pretty indispensable. basically what this thread is hinting at is multi-color aggro is essential to support since running jungle lion is such an embarrassment
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
If you look at the stats, it appears that many Cube designers are such slaves to the "guild system" that ~100% include Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard while only ~90 have Dryad Militant. That is the height of insanity.

So many of the "conventional" cube design choices have so very little to do with game design.
 
This is a thread that interests me very much. I currently play both "last picks" Wolfbitten Captive and Jungle Lion and I'm almost embarassed to say that they have pulled some heavy weight on a few ocasions. Those were very exquisite ocasions, so I'm not taking them as a baseline to say that those cards are good.

Just one note about the Jungle Lion/Dryad Militant argument: I don't think that it is fair to compare both cards saying that Dryad is better and more decks would play it. We know that good one drops are hard to come by and Dryad fits an archetype that is already considered good by the average drafter (white aggro). Green aggro, on the other hand, is a more of a underdog archetype, and having a one drop going round the table while picking other high-value picks (be it removal, equipment, mana or whatever) is a good thing. It is kinda like what they are doing by releasing suboptimal removal spells for retail draft sets. Of course, my cube is begger than most cubes and our pack formation is different, so I have more real estate to work with. This won't apply to every cube out there, just wanted to point this out.

Right now I'm pushing some human aggro for white (3 Champion of the Parish in my white section) and I see that, from my green one drops, Experiment One is the most interesting aggro card that I currently run (it's a mini-parish on itself). A second Mayor of Avabruck might be interesting as well as added support. For green-based aggressive strategies, what other cards have you guys encountered that don't rely on eitherred or white to be good (if there is any)?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Just one note about the Jungle Lion/Dryad Militant argument: I don't think that it is fair to compare both cards saying that Dryad is better and more decks would play it. We know that good one drops are hard to come by and Dryad fits an archetype that is already considered good by the average drafter (white aggro). Green aggro, on the other hand, is a more of a underdog archetype, and having a one drop going round the table while picking other high-value picks (be it removal, equipment, mana or whatever) is a good thing. It is kinda like what they are doing by releasing suboptimal removal spells for retail draft sets.

I think the theory certainly applies to all cubes. It's the same reason I run Condemn instead of, say, an additional Swords to Plowshares. I want something that will table to the control player. Understanding card demand is very important, and blindly jamming the more powerful one of course isn't ideal. The humor comes from simultaneously power maxing and rigidly adhering to some misunderstood notions of "color balance".
 
I don't think Jungle Lions would be a total embarrassment if Green had the shell for it. But nobody's going to play Skinshifter or even Leatherback Baloth or anything like that either because it isn't worth forcing it.

The weird thing is that almost every Cube seems to play in between cards that don't make much sense to us. For example, what decks actually want to play Troll Ascetic?

I get that there are "quotas" of a sort so that your Cube doesn't devolve into an incoherent mess, but it still seems like there are 'pick orders' floating around that dictate most "design" decisions (ie each color needs X three drops and here is a list of the best ones, etc)
 
I think the theory certainly applies to all cubes. It's the same reason I run Condemn instead of, say, an additional Swords to Plowshares. I want something that will table to the control player. Understanding card demand is very important, and blindly jamming the more powerful one of course isn't ideal. The humor comes from simultaneously power maxing and rigidly adhering to some misunderstood notions of "color balance".

I agree about the power maxing/color balance dichotomy. To actually power max you're going to have Reanimator specific cards (inc Bazaar of Baghdad), heavy artifact support (probably including Time Vault), heavy combo presence (mostly seems to be based around Dream Halls and Draw 7s) along with random "win now" cards like Channel+Eldrazi.

I am agnostic on whether that would be good, bad, or otherwise but it would at least be honest about what its doing.

As opposed to playing a bunch of 6 drops that dominate because they only have to "oppress" Jackal Pups. Accompanied by the conceit that this constitutes "brutal" when its really just a showcasing of the best creatures at each casting cost.

We experimented with a 'brutal' Cube and the first thing we did was cut every creature between 5-7 mana that wasn't a legit Tinker target. Even the 'iconic' ones are hard pressed to make it (Baneslayer Angel..)
 
For example, what decks actually want to play Troll Ascetic?
Midrange (better with equips and stuff) ;) It is also a good tech in mirror matches or against creature decks because of regeneration.

I think the true question is: What are we expecting of green as an aggro color? What past examples of good green aggro decks we want to foster? Are we expecting something more akin to Predator Ooze green of the last season or something more akin to Nest Invader/Beastmaster Ascension from the Eldrazi era? Should we focus on 1-drops and get to something like a green weenies?

I think there might even be a way to make Elves being a pretty good archetype for green aggro:
• We have Nettle Sentinel as a good early drop.
Wren's Run Vanquisher is a very decent 2-drop. Needs some commitment to the archetype, though.
Imperious Perfect might be a decent lord. Also good if you support token strategies.
Caller of the Claw is a decent anti-wrath tech
Wilt-Leaf Liege is anthem with legs
Fauna Shaman is an elf that I think everyone might be playing already. Fetches Vengevine, that plays well with playing lots of elves.
Quirion Ranger might be too cute to actually work, but has some interesting sinergies with Imperious Perfect and Fauna Shaman.
Chameleon Colossus, for all of your tribal synergy needs.
Yeva, Nature's Herald? Heard good things about it.
Eyeblight's Ending is a decent removal spell that happens to not hamper elf-green aggro.

Some elves that people already use and that are good in aggro strategies:
Bloodbraid Elf
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Mirror Entity
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (not that good in aggro)
Viridian Shaman
Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, Deathrite Shaman, Fyndhorn Elves, Arbor Elf and Joraga Treespeaker
Mutavault
Craterhoof Behemoth. Because we all know he is secretly an elf.

Doesn't look like it would be all that powerful, but someone could give it a try :)

EDIT: Adding some stuff that I forgot
 

CML

Contributor
Meh, as much as I've tried to support tribal themes like these it's pretty much never worth it to devote that amount of slots to it in your Cube. (I've written out primers much more detailed than yours and it's never worked out.) A notable exception is Jason's Zombies, but even that's subject to some pretty big design restrictions. Basically my playtesting revealed that only Humans were a sweet tribe, though it wasn't until much later that I found out why ...

zombies - 5
warriors - 10
goblins - 11
soldiers - 11
elves - 14
humans - 45
 

Rob Dennis

Developer
There was a guy on MTGS who kept Lions over Militant on the grounds that he didn't want to upset his colour balance and green aggro wasn't a supported theme in his Cube anyway. It's just baffling how people can think like that.


I am of the opinion that a cube is better the more evenly distributed the drafted decks/colors. I think that others think the same, and that some of those people feel the best way to achieve this is to have the color tabs of their spreadsheet have the same numbers.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Sure, but an even distribution isn't an end in itself; it's only useful in as far as it makes the overall draft/play experience better. In practice, a guy scraping to put a X/G aggro deck together isn't going to be glad that an abstract ideal of colour balance is being maintained, he's going to be sad that the Savannah Lions in his SB isn't a Dryad Militant. As has been covered in various places here, colour balance is an odd idea anyway given how rarely certain cards of the same colour coexist in the same deck, and hybrid/gold always poses a problem.
 

CML

Contributor
It's just such a subtle thing past a certain point that it's clear they're using it as an excuse for not fixing the bigger problems in their Cubes.

I like to come up with New Yorker-style cartoons, the one apposite to this situaish is of an etherized (aetherized?) patient being yelled at by a doctor, with a caption of "I cured your cold, your bruise, and your wart, and you're mad that I might have given you CANCER?"
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Out of curiosity, how many G/W hybrid cards would you have to be running in your white section (IE How many Kitchen Finks' and Dryad Militants) would you have to be running before you considered correcting the problem? (Removing cards from the green section, or adding to white, etc etc)
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
In my "cube list" Dryad Militant is a white 1-drop and Finks is a green 3-drop. When they are slotted into mono slots there's not really any risk of there being a problem.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
In my "cube list" Dryad Militant is a white 1-drop and Finks is a green 3-drop. When they are slotted into mono slots there's not really any risk of there being a problem.
Same here, but would you feel the same if they were both in white?
What if they were both in white along with 3 other hybrids

7 hybrids in white, 0 in green?
9/0? 11/0?

What's the threshold where you start to change other things to compensate?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Well, what's your concern exactly? I could run a cube with only 10 or 20 (or no) green cards and the players will compensate. The same way that players compensate based on the variable strength of colors / archetypes in draft formats. Like most things the devil is in the details. Would you still have good dynamics? Maybe. It depends on the implementation. The Eldrazi cube (http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/625) has very unbalanced hybrid distribution, but is still perfectly functional.
 
First of all, thank you so much for creating this forum Jason. It is fantastic to read about cubing. It is my favorite format and I think this forum really stimulates good conversation about it. I know it sounds cliche, but I have been cubing for a long time. I designed my first cube when I was 14 and have spent about 6 years putting it all together via trades/and buying a small number of cards. I really enjoyed hunting for the cards, but now I really enjoy being able to play it.

Ok now down to business. I kinda disagree with having dryad militant as a white 1 drop. I have played that card in a g/r aggressive deck multiple times. I also don't think kitchen finks is a mono green drop. I have also played that card in midrange and control base white. I mean obv just cuz they are taking up slots in other colors doesn't mean they cant be cast by white or green, but they take away one spot from other sweet green cards.

Again this is kind of nit picking because the percent of time that it actually matters is probably very very small. It is really up to the cube designer to create a cube that he or his play group enjoy playing.

Also something for players to think about is having a "Cube Sideboard." I keep track of every card that gets taken out, when it was taken out, and what card it was replaced by. I store all of the "Cube rejects" in a binder and they act as a sideboard. If I feel like tossing in a different strategy, changing the meta game a little, or even just throwing in some sweet old cards, I will pull them of the sideboard.

Thoughts?

oh yea ps, Rakdos Cackler and Ashenmoor Gouger and red cards in my cube.. Thoughts?
 

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