Card/Deck Green Aggro

HannesVersmissen

HannesVersmissen

In general, it doesn't really matter where you "file" it, because in the end it's just as much a green threedrop as a white threedrop as a selesnya threedrop (kitchen finks ofc.)
even if your cube's color-distribution is "off" as to speak, it doesn't really matter if it doesn't have a direct impact on gamplay.
having 1 or 2 more green cards than there are cards in other colors isn't going to cause any real problems, for example.

So wether the militant is a white 1 drop or not, it doesn't actually mater because even if white had 2 more drops than the other colors, nobody would notice. (actual packs have far more variance than that)
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
macktheknife said:
First of all, thank you so much for creating this forum Jason. It is fantastic to read about cubing. It is my favorite format and I think this forum really stimulates good conversation about it. I know it sounds cliche, but I have been cubing for a long time. I designed my first cube when I was 14 and have spent about 6 years putting it all together via trades/and buying a small number of cards. I really enjoyed hunting for the cards, but now I really enjoy being able to play it.

Ok now down to business. I kinda disagree with having dryad militant as a white 1 drop. I have played that card in a g/r aggressive deck multiple times. I also don't think kitchen finks is a mono green drop. I have also played that card in midrange and control base white. I mean obv just cuz they are taking up slots in other colors doesn't mean they cant be cast by white or green, but they take away one spot from other sweet green cards.

Again this is kind of nit picking because the percent of time that it actually matters is probably very very small. It is really up to the cube designer to create a cube that he or his play group enjoy playing.

Also something for players to think about is having a "Cube Sideboard." I keep track of every card that gets taken out, when it was taken out, and what card it was replaced by. I store all of the "Cube rejects" in a binder and they act as a sideboard. If I feel like tossing in a different strategy, changing the meta game a little, or even just throwing in some sweet old cards, I will pull them of the sideboard.

Thoughts?

oh yea ps, Rakdos Cackler and Ashenmoor Gouger and red cards in my cube.. Thoughts?
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Thanks for posting here!

Regarding classification, I wrote an article about it here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-declassified-information/
However the ChannelFireball site is down currently so you may have to check back later. The article is pretty comprehensive and I do recommend reading it when you get the chance.

The "Cube Sideboard" is what Kranny calls and "on deck binder", and is a pretty common thing among cubers. I don't really trade away cards, so most the cards that have ever been in one of my cubes are sitting around in binders or boxes. It's nice to have the cards on hand as it makes you more willing to evaluate them honestly. I found that in the past I had a bias against including cards that I don't actually own. When you have the cards easily accessible there's no barrier to making a swap.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I classify my cards very meticulously, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. For most hybrid cards, I list them in a special section of their own (separate from gold), and usually count them as half a card in each colour. Kitchen Finks is 0.5 {W} card, 0.5 {G} card, for example; Figure of Destiny 0.5 {W}, 0.5 {R}. This lets me adjust the ratios for cards that I know get played more in certain colours. Dryad Militant is 0.7 {W}, 0.3 {G}; Boggart Ram-Gang is 0.2 {G}, 0.8 {R}. And so on.

Then I can tally up all the ratios, and figure out which colours are underrepresented in gold and hybrid. At the moment, that's blue, so blue gets an extra monocolour card or two. Meanwhile, red shaves its monocolour section by a card.

You don't have to be as obsessive about it as me, but this is one way to ensure that relative colour balance is maintained, without just arbitrarily shoving, say, Fulminator Mage into one colour or another.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Good discussion on this page. My two cents: classification is a waste of time if you haven't done a dozen other things to tune your Cube (and who has?), but then it becomes mildly useful for one reason: curve.

In other words Hannes -- sure, the packs will have lots of variance, but in a 360 someone's gonna be getting Hero of Bladehold, Restoration Angel, Angel of Jubilation, Armageddon every time, and it might very well be the same person, and their deck might be 'curvy' in the Internet dating sense with a big bulge at 4. I guess the only issue I've found is that 'stuff costs 4 too much across various colors'

Which is a common issue in poorly-designed cubes. "OK, I'll cast Gifts for Deep Analysis, JTMS, Graveborn Muse, and Elspeth. Go to discard. Discard Deep Analysis." etc
 
macktheknife

macktheknife

I guess it really depends on how you construct your packs as well. I really like counting out an even number of every color and a fixed amount of artifacts/multi/adv lands. That way I know that most strategies in the cube are supported every time. I know some people just shuffle it all together and make packs that way which I would like to try some time also. I guess if you were going to make it as real as possible it would be better to shuffle all of the cards together and make packs that way.

But again another thing that depends on the play group/cube designer.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
CML said:
Good discussion on this page. My two cents: classification is a waste of time if you haven't done a dozen other things to tune your Cube (and who has?), but then it becomes mildly useful for one reason: curve.

In other words Hannes -- sure, the packs will have lots of variance, but in a 360 someone's gonna be getting Hero of Bladehold, Restoration Angel, Angel of Jubilation, Armageddon every time, and it might very well be the same person, and their deck might be 'curvy' in the Internet dating sense with a big bulge at 4. I guess the only issue I've found is that 'stuff costs 4 too much across various colors'

Which is a common issue in poorly-designed cubes. "OK, I'll cast Gifts for Deep Analysis, JTMS, Graveborn Muse, and Elspeth. Go to discard. Discard Deep Analysis." etc
Click to expand...


This. 4-drops are such a trap in design. 'But Dungeon Geists is a good card!'. Yes, but...
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Yeah, at 4 you get the bulk of Cube's most powerful effects: Sweepers and Walkers. Also a bunch of draw spells that will draw you into more draw spells (to borrow a term from Legacy and Uno, "draw fours")

I'm sure some of yall are familiar with the joke about Standard Jund "not doing anything until turn 4." Now the joke is on the rest of us though http://sales.starcitygames.com/deck...er_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=2&action=Show+Decks

It doesn't help that WotC (in the grand tradition of the Titans) has been pushing the power level of 4+-CMC creatures to get people to play them. What are you gonna do, not include Huntmaster of the Fells, Hero of Bladehold, Falkenrath Aristocrat in your Cube? It's gotten to the point where I shitcanned Sublime Archangel, which is a very strong card whose effect and play-decisions I like a lot.
 
James Stevenson

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
I cut huntmaster from my cube. It's really good, but it's really good against aggro and it doesn't really help any archetypes I want to push. I might put it back in my that I'm trying to make a populate theme work.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Same here. Huntmaster is at its best in midrangy green decks around here - hello Standard Jund! - which is a deck I'm sick to death of.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
I like Huntmaster, it's not oppressively strong and there's a lot of decisions to be made with it (in both drafting/building and gameplay)

I think I'd rather cut Elf before GCR / HM but my playgroup thinks flipping cards off the top is fun and I'm inclined to agree with them.
 
Rob Dennis

Rob Dennis

Developer
really reconsidering stormbind once I realized that multicolor red cards in my cube are somehow mostly 4-drops*, including all of the R/G cards (Bloodbraid Elf, Huntmaster of the Fells, Ghor-Clan Rampager)

I have a couple of green sources of card draw:
that I can see keeping it fed


* thanks to CML for bringing up the overcrowding at 4 yesterday; I don't typically look at my curves across colors, but with the latest dev lambic, I checked it out and was surprised to see a spike
 
CML

CML

Contributor
you're welcome. it's a problem with most everyone's cube (and part of why signets are so strong in typical design).

how has your Garruk, Primal Hunter experience been? To be honest I can't think of a stronger Green card or Planeswalker for Cube.

i want a lambic REAL BAD right now.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
meh, I like Wildspeaker and Relentless both more, and I would probably take Survival, Fastbond, Sylvan Library, Treespeaker, Loam, Thragtusk, Natural Order and a few more cards over it.

Greater Good is a really nice one. I like Stormbind particularly if you have a reasonably well supported GY theme or cards like Loam/Squadron Hawk/Land Tax.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
HAHA yeah. But that example's only funny if the 2/2's win, right?

Thing about Primal Hunter is that he's designed to 'keep pace' with something like Sphinx's Rev for a long game, so of course he's going to be swingy. But if the control decks don't 'have 4 rev's,' then maybe the swings just go in one direction. Etc. I've only played with the card a few times in constructed but r8 of my last PTQ I resolved a Primal Hunter, did nothing for the rest of the game, and still only lost by an ingrown hair

Then I wonder if my Cube could handle his power. 'Only one way to find out,' he said, trumpeting his 'empirical testing' theory that a) consumes a lot of time b) muddles things by mixing variables as if they were cheap liquors in a DTX punch

Three Garruks, why not (the 6-mana one is rubbish, and rubbish isn't cool. Stuff and shit is cool)
 
VincePendrell

VincePendrell

CML said:
Then I wonder if my Cube could handle his power. 'Only one way to find out,' he said, trumpeting his 'empirical testing' theory that a) consumes a lot of time b) muddles things by mixing variables as if they were cheap liquors in a DTX punch
Click to expand...


You can build what would be the best and worst decks possibles that would play him and try them against some 3-0 lists that you have recorded to get through your testing bottleneck ;) (or just put Garruk in your 3-0 lists and ride him to victory)

I did this a lot of times when I wasn't sure about including some cards on my first month or so with a good degree of success. (Just remember to test with good players to make sure the cards are being evaluated correctly.)
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Blue is where I find the biggest glut of 4's (Every walker, value counterspell, draw spell and control magic. JEEZ)

I think I need to take a chainsaw to my cube sometime.
I think GR2 and BR2 are probably the 2 most common mana costs on playable multicolor cards ever. It really makes me sad, especially since they keep pounding on it (Damnit Xenagos!)
 
CML

CML

Contributor
NAhhhhh white. sweepers and dudes. the blue 4's at least are cuttable beyond a certain point, but there's only 1 ajani goldmane or elspeth or so on. actually with your RG BR analysis i think U is the color with the least issue at 4, but it makes up for it by having ALL OF THE 3'S

fwiw i cut deep analysis
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
There are so many blue 4s though. Tons of good draw spells (FoF, both Gifts, DA, Careful Consideration, Foresee) but also a lot of the anti-creature stuff (Sower, Control Magic, Dungeon Geists) as well as stuff like Dismiss, GEA etc.
 
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