General Gruul Aggro-Madness

ravnic

ravnic

For a while I've been searching for a {R}{G} archetype, that's interesting and fun to play. I decided to go with just midrange, but that had 2 problems: 1. It was kinda boring. 2. I anded up with {R}{W} being the only aggro 2-color-combination, which seemed to shape up to a very slow, midrange-y meta. So I looked for an aggro archetype, that plays out not the same like the Boros Go Wide version. Since I didn't really ge there with +1/+1 counters, I had an idea. How about this:

Aggressive discard outlets:



Pair it with cards, that are good when discarded early:



The round it up with some generally uselful aggro support, especially green is often not optimized for that:

...

Has anyone tried somethin like this? It makes for a pretty interesting flavor for aggro decks, which is sometimes the problem with aggressive decks. And it has the potential for more explosive starts then any regular aggro deck.

Faithless Looting, discard Rootwalla+Honored Hydra.
Or start with Kird Ape into Mongrel into Arrogant Wurm+discard Anger.

I think it could be very satisfying to play. Also, it bleeds nicely into graveyard strategies and other aggro support. I only wish there was a little more support in green. Anything that I'm missing?
 
inscho

inscho

RG Madness is awesome...It's never getting cut from my cube. Few things are as fun as churning out hasty wurms. It plays a lot like a Fires deck in my cube. Here's a sample cubetutor draft of mine:

RG Madness from CubeTutor.com












Some other bros that are a lot of fun in this archetype are:


It can be tuned to be blisteringly fast with these cards:



(Wheels for huge Mongrels)

This card is also a ton of fun in the archetype:


Obviously, my cube is much more powered, but if it can function at that speed it can easily be tuned down to work in your environment. There's an abundance of options for any power level afaic.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Thanks for the input guys!

Alfonzo Bonzo said:
Here's a deck from an earlier cube design of mine where this was a thing

...

There's only limited numbers of discard matters, and it's actually more about the graveyard interactions I think.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's true, sadly, but as long as I can give this deck a clear identity, that's different from just being a slightly faster, nonblack version of BG Dredge, I can live with that. May I ask you, why you decided to cut that archetype from your cube in the end?


inscho said:
RG Madness is awesome...It's never getting cut from my cube. Few things are as fun as churning out hasty wurms. It plays a lot like a Fires deck in my cube. Here's a sample cubetutor draft of mine:

...

Obviously, my cube is much more powered, but if it can function at that speed it can easily be tuned down to work in your environment. There's an abundance of options for any power level afaic.
Click to expand...

Wow, your post made me really positive about that whole think. If it works on your power level, I will sure find the right cards to make it to in my list as well!

I couldn't even resist to try and force it from your list: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/981231

It felt well supported, I even passed on quite a few excellent role players, because there were too many of them in one pack. Hope I made the right picks.

Specific card question: What do you guys think of Llanowar Mentor? He's cheap enough for this deck I'd say and pooping out mana elves sounds powerful enough for my meta easily, but he doesn't look that aggressive, so maybe not quite what that version of madness wants?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
My gut feeling when looking at mentor is to try it. I really like the card. Llanowar elves are an iconic card, and this is kind of a more exciting version of that card. In a format where you can build board states, you get this vision of a board of llanowar elves powering out higher CC threats, which is very G/R. Its kind of a green looter, in a color that dosen't normally get looters, which is good for game quality, and building a board state to be buffed also works with a lot of G/R overruns and mini-overruns.

On top of that, its an activated ability that becomes better with haste, which is also on theme.

Of course, the main problem with it is that its kind of inefficient. The faster the format is, the more that {G} taxes you, and limits how effectively the card can realize its potential, and become reasonably fun.
 
safra

safra

I don't like Llanowar Mentor at probably most power levels. It's really clunky and most of the spellshapers are either not worth using or become every-turn plans (also dull). Some early R/G discard outlets not mentioned yet:
(higher-power first, then lower-power. not a precisely sorted list)


And more payoffs:


Also good here: gravepulses?
 
ravnic

ravnic

I think what deck needs to really shine as an individual Gruul archetype for cube, are too things: More Madness payoffs in green and especially better early discard outlets for little mana in both colors. Mongrel/Constrictor are perfect. They are cheap and aggressive, you need no mana to get the discard ability going and they are generally good enough without madness payoffs. I also have high hopes for Battlefield Scavenger, but most of these cards either are not playable without stuff to discard or cost mana the turn you want to discard. I want this card please:


Mongrel Pup {G}
Creature - Hound
Discard a card: ~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
1/1


Please Wizards, that looks like a perfect core set card even
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I remember simpler times when we all briefly tried to Cube Vaultbreaker

Llanowar Mentor is cool but more at home in a grindy GB graveyard deck that can afford to tie up its mana early to have more of it later

There's a close tie-in with the RG Berserkers strategy that many of us have tried: the efficient damage boosting/doubling effects are mostly in RG, but I found that even green doesn't have enough creatures that are cheap and naturally large enough to make those cards worth it without too much setup. That changes if you consider creatures with low base power but a high ceiling with the right graveyard/other interactions, a path lots of Cubes want to explore anyway. If Flameblade Adept or Wild Mongrel can get to 4 power on the 'combo turn', your Berserks and Battle Rages look a lot better. It also makes it easier to give red more dimensions with the Looting effects it now has easy access to: Faithless Looting/Tormenting Voice/Cathartic Reunion et al. are great cards but traditional red aggro doesn't want them as it has to play to the board early and has enough redundancy that they aren't necessary; these aggro-combo decks want to dig for specific pieces or cash in useless ones and can afford to because the payoff is so high. Green has enough pump effects that you can look for those that play off the graveyard or are stuck on creatures to make finding them easier with whatever your favourite flavour of that effect is (Gather the Pack/Survival of the Fittest/write-in)

Berserkers stuff:
 
sigh

sigh

Crucial (IMO) one drop because it both fills the bottom of the curve, but also benefits from other madness stuff going on.
 
Rowan_CB

Rowan_CB

I'm intrigued by what's being talked about here because I'm looking for a secondary archetype in Gruul and I happen to already run a bunch of the cards that have been listed here. But I've never seen this deck come together in my cube, and I'm wondering why.

I think the issues are, and some have alluded to this, (a) what are the green payoffs? and (b) are the green enablers fast enough to push an aggro game plan? Now, it's fine if red does most of the heavy lifting in the archetype, but that can make the theme hard to signal to drafters. I feel like this archetype might end up being more midrangey than aggro, and play out almost like a reanimator strategy, i.e., use early discard outlets to find a green fatty that can be flashbacked or embalmed out of the graveyard at a time when it plays ahead of the curve?
 
inscho

inscho

Rowan_CB said:
I'm intrigued by what's being talked about here because I'm looking for a secondary archetype in Gruul and I happen to already run a bunch of the cards that have been listed here. But I've never seen this deck come together in my cube, and I'm wondering why.

I think the issues are, and some have alluded to this, (a) what are the green payoffs? and (b) are the green enablers fast enough to push an aggro game plan? Now, it's fine if red does most of the heavy lifting in the archetype, but that can make the theme hard to signal to drafters. I feel like this archetype might end up being more midrangey than aggro, and play out almost like a reanimator strategy, i.e., use early discard outlets to find a green fatty that can be flashbacked or embalmed out of the graveyard at a time when it plays ahead of the curve?
Click to expand...

Beware. Unformated block of text incoming...

The Mongrels are important....the instant speed discard makes it much more valuable than Bloodrage Brawler and Borderland Explorer...it allows you to flash in your madness creatures, surprise with burst damage. I find running both Wild Mongrel and Noose Constrictor is vital.

Stormbind helps steer people mentally towards "discard payoffs". Magus of the Wheel brings positive associations with both the mongrels and stormbind. Plays well with Life from the Loam which you run.

The wurms are great: Roar of the Wurm fits your power level.

I'd consider Gamble...which brings positive interactions with Squee, Anger, Madness Cards, and Life from the Loam.

Lupine Prototype is a favorite of mine that really incentivizes Madness and Hellbent....it's an easy build-around imo. It doesn't seem many people like this card though...it's a bit on the nose I guess?

Rancor is a big one. Maybe too strong for your cube. However, an easy sub you could make is Elephant Guide for Moldervine Cloak? It's like a more fair Rancor.

Scourge Wolf is a lot of fun with Green's pump effects.

Flamewake Phoenix pairs extra nicely with green's larger bodies. Not many of black's cards are 4 or greater power.

I think it's more about working on the connections between the two colors than it is about identifying Green's payoffs at your power level. Black's payoffs alongside red are so clear with Scrapheap Scrounger and Asylum Visitor. You want to focus on what green adds to red's madness suite that distinguishes it from black's hellbent cards.
 
Rowan_CB

Rowan_CB

That's very useful, thanks. This is exciting because I feel like I was already 90% of the way toward supporting this archetype without ever even considering it. Makes me feel like I can significantly add to the depth of this color pair pretty painlessly.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Rowan_CB said:
I'm intrigued by what's being talked about here because I'm looking for a secondary archetype in Gruul and I happen to already run a bunch of the cards that have been listed here. But I've never seen this deck come together in my cube, and I'm wondering why.

I think the issues are, and some have alluded to this, (a) what are the green payoffs? and (b) are the green enablers fast enough to push an aggro game plan? Now, it's fine if red does most of the heavy lifting in the archetype, but that can make the theme hard to signal to drafters. I feel like this archetype might end up being more midrangey than aggro, and play out almost like a reanimator strategy, i.e., use early discard outlets to find a green fatty that can be flashbacked or embalmed out of the graveyard at a time when it plays ahead of the curve?
Click to expand...


Well yeah, the green payoffs and enablers aren't all that plenty, but it has some strong ones. My way of handling this for now is to mostly add those cards that are useful on their own or interesting for other decks and trying to etablish green as a secondary aggro color (just as I did with white for the go-wide version of aggro).

If the deck can go off with Wild Mongrel, Stromkirk Occultist and Co., but can ALSO just play Jungle Lion into Burning-Fist Minotaur into Call of the Herd, than it is much easier to draft AND less frustrating to play when A+B don't come together perfectly. That's my plan at least.

The green stuff I decided to add for this package (and a few great fits that were already in) is the following:



The archetype could get more focused with more support easily, but for know, that's all we have. I'm sitting here waiting for a 1/1 Mongrel for {G} and a 3/3 Mongrel for {1}{G}{G} ...
 
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Rowan_CB

Rowan_CB

One of the most satisfying things in cube design is when you are able to make a few small changes that disproportionately add to the cube's depth. Sometimes in ways you don't realize until later. By tweaking a few cards to help ensure Gruul Aggro Madness was well supported, I just realized I inadvertently added to the depth of my Golgari section as well. I was running BR Aggro madness already. With a few card changes, RG Aggro madness became possible. So, I thought, if I'm supporting madness aggro in Green and Black, shouldn't a GB Aggro madness deck be possible as well? Lo and behold the following, which is absolutely distinct from any GB build I've seen come together in this cube before:

GB Aggro Madness from CubeTutor.com












I love this shit.
 
ravnic

ravnic

That looks like a pretty fresh approach to {B}{G}

May I ask, which changes you have applied to your green section to makes these decks possible?
 
ravnic

ravnic



Could this card be solid in an aggro madness deck within a relatively low powered environment? It is basically free to discard (which is why I'm thinking about it), as you don't need topdeck lands in aggro anyway. The only problem is, that you might simply have better ways to discard it for a rummage effect or so. But with trample or evasion, +4/+4 can cause a lot of damage, even as a sorcery.
 
inscho

inscho

I prefer Moldervine Cloak as well, but if you need something a tier or two lower in power, I suppose Monstrify could work. I'd definitely want some other cross synergy like lands in graveyards, spell or discard triggers to make it more interesting than just a piece of inevitability.
 
T

tbo



I've seen this mentioned here a couple times-- it seems interesting, even if not the strongest.
Does anyone have thoughts/experience?

I run a pretty discard/graveyard heavy cube, for what it's worth
 
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