Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Isn't eidolon just unplayable on its own? Wouldn't it be better to just not run it and go x2 doomwake.
Card/Deck How to execute a minimalist Enchantment theme
- Thread starter Diakonov
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'm kind of surprised by that as well; I also thought that Eidolon of countless battles would do better: white sections tend to bulk up easily with enchantment based removal.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
If I didn't custom up a few of cards for it, I doubt it would have worked. 7(!!!) of the enchantment creatures I run are sharpied. However, that new enchantment/demon from commander is pretty epic, so that's one card down. But, yeah, if you aren't running auras as a crossover, I'd imagine it would be kinda tough to make work. Cards like Kor Spiritdancer, Flickering Ward, and the Bestow Dudes are workhorses that keep demand for a lot of these cards up.
I don't think Eidolon of Blossoms is that hard to justify running in an otherwise non-themed deck that has some random enchantments sprinkled in. Assuming you can get one additional trigger off it, you're almost in Mulldrifter territory; anything else is gravy. It's also a passable target for the minor blink theme I have in white.
Nyx-Fleece Ram is as narrow as every other wall in cube is, without providing the utility of something like a Wall of Omens, Ludevic's Test Subject, Augur of Bolas, or Wall of Roots. It's really more of an aggro hoser that belongs in sideboards more than in maindecks, as it basically amounts to card disadvantage against midrange and control.
Eidolon of Countless Battles reads well, but is underwhelming for the same reasons that cards like Crusader of Odric don't make the cut. While I could see it being played in an aura-removal-heavy control list, those decks prefer something more resilient to be their finisher, like Myth Realized. It's a card that's more suited to be the top end for aggro swarm decks, but at four mana, there are a ton of other similar spells that get the job done better.
Nyx-Fleece Ram is as narrow as every other wall in cube is, without providing the utility of something like a Wall of Omens, Ludevic's Test Subject, Augur of Bolas, or Wall of Roots. It's really more of an aggro hoser that belongs in sideboards more than in maindecks, as it basically amounts to card disadvantage against midrange and control.
Eidolon of Countless Battles reads well, but is underwhelming for the same reasons that cards like Crusader of Odric don't make the cut. While I could see it being played in an aura-removal-heavy control list, those decks prefer something more resilient to be their finisher, like Myth Realized. It's a card that's more suited to be the top end for aggro swarm decks, but at four mana, there are a ton of other similar spells that get the job done better.
I'm going to be attempting to weave my enchantment theme with heroic and prowess mechanics, and yes that will entail running some friendly aura's (generally a questionable move).
I'm skeptical this is going to work for reasons stated by Eric. Friendly aura's are generally very weak to instant speed removal (in particular), so the only ones even remotely viable are most likely those with built-in protection against sorcery speed 2 for 1's (rancor, griffin guide, elephant guide, etc.). Maybe a couple super fringe ones are possible (thinking moldervine cloak specifically because of the graveyard interaction), but the overall power level of your cube is going to dictate what degree of bogus that hits on the unplayable meter. I want this to work so I'm probably being overly optimistic.
From previous testing with enchantress, I can say that an aggressive/midrange build with Eidolon of Blossoms and Doomwake Giant on the top end along with things like O-ring, Parallax Wave and what not is more than playable. It's actually pretty scary. Elf, aggressive 3 drop (say something with haste perhaps), Eidolon of Blossoms, Doomwake Giant (with O-ring in hand) wrecks a lot of stuff and has a ton of late game play due to the CA it can generate. Herald of the Pantheon is narrow yes but very good in this deck and potentially worth running. The fact that it's a bear in combat (WCS) is critical in my mind and it's really not hard to get additional value out of him if you have enough enchantment support. But he's as far as I'll go, and really it's walking a fine line. Stuff like Argothian Enchantress though is too narrow for cube IMO.
I'm skeptical this is going to work for reasons stated by Eric. Friendly aura's are generally very weak to instant speed removal (in particular), so the only ones even remotely viable are most likely those with built-in protection against sorcery speed 2 for 1's (rancor, griffin guide, elephant guide, etc.). Maybe a couple super fringe ones are possible (thinking moldervine cloak specifically because of the graveyard interaction), but the overall power level of your cube is going to dictate what degree of bogus that hits on the unplayable meter. I want this to work so I'm probably being overly optimistic.
From previous testing with enchantress, I can say that an aggressive/midrange build with Eidolon of Blossoms and Doomwake Giant on the top end along with things like O-ring, Parallax Wave and what not is more than playable. It's actually pretty scary. Elf, aggressive 3 drop (say something with haste perhaps), Eidolon of Blossoms, Doomwake Giant (with O-ring in hand) wrecks a lot of stuff and has a ton of late game play due to the CA it can generate. Herald of the Pantheon is narrow yes but very good in this deck and potentially worth running. The fact that it's a bear in combat (WCS) is critical in my mind and it's really not hard to get additional value out of him if you have enough enchantment support. But he's as far as I'll go, and really it's walking a fine line. Stuff like Argothian Enchantress though is too narrow for cube IMO.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
There just aren't enough good enchantments to make it work unless you're willing to make it a primary theme, break singleton a lot, and probably bring custom cards in too.
Some of the Auras are fine but you want a mix of equipment, Auras, and instant/sorcery pump and leaning heavily on Auras comes at a real cost.
Some of the Auras are fine but you want a mix of equipment, Auras, and instant/sorcery pump and leaning heavily on Auras comes at a real cost.
Yeah, combat tricks are more interesting than auras in general, because they provide a lot more play on both sides of the table.
I would totally get onboard an equipment theme, if they ever designed enablers and payoff cards for that. And some half decent equipment.
I really want to like Herald of the Pantheon, but at least for my list I think bringing back Lotus Cobra in its stead is likely to help a lot more decks.
I would totally get onboard an equipment theme, if they ever designed enablers and payoff cards for that. And some half decent equipment.
I really want to like Herald of the Pantheon, but at least for my list I think bringing back Lotus Cobra in its stead is likely to help a lot more decks.
The problem I have with Eidolon of Blossoms as an engine is that it's a 4-mana card, so you have to hold you aura-based removal for Turn 5 to get value out of it. The body itself is pretty worthless in the same way that Oracle of Mul Daya is. It's kind of awkward to be having such a narrow card be taking up two 4-drop slots. Needing help to get to sub-mulldrifter status isn't super enticing. 
The problem I have with Eidolon of Blossoms as an engine is that it's a 4-mana card, so you have to hold you aura-based removal for Turn 5 to get value out of it. The body itself is pretty worthless in the same way that Oracle of Mul Daya is. It's kind of awkward to be having such a narrow card be taking up two 4-drop slots. Needing help to get to sub-mulldrifter status isn't super enticing.
Except that you are playing green. How many green decks are people building without ramp in it? In my meta, zero. So Eidolon of Blossoms is a T3 play from a deck design standpoint, and that makes it a lot more playable I think. I get that sometimes you don't draw your ramp and it truly is a T4 play, but green based decks not drawing any ramp usually lose anyway, so it doesn't seem like an Eidolon of Blossoms problem to me. Others may have very different Gx decks though, so I could be way off here.
I mean, I agree, but most people weren't running Oracle of Mul Daya and Courser of Kruphix feels like one of the last cards I would cut from my cube. Obviously there are other differences between the cards, but considering the body isn't all that, getting access to the Eidolon engine a turn earlier would be a world of difference.
I guess I see Eidolon of Blossoms and Doomwake Giant as less engine cards and more synergy cards that give additional reach to aggro/midrange. I don't think about them as build arounds where I'm trying to get 4 triggers off them in a game.
My meta is slower and lower powered than yours Jason so we could be just talking apples and oranges and my thinking doesn't carry over. But Eidolon of Blossoms seems a fine play to me after I've built some board presence. It replaced itself automatically. If my opponent ignores it, it potentially generates more value. If they waste a kill spell on it, they've essentially self 2 for 1'd even if it was technically a tempo play. Doomwake is even more useful since he effectively wipes tokens and is a pretty meaty body for 5 mana. And if that doesn't die, it keeps killing 1/x dudes on the other side of the table. Even with just two or three other enchantments in my deck, I'm not unhappy with Doomwake honestly (I'd consider playing it with zero enchantment support). Eidolon needs a bit more help as the WCS is below curve even in my cube, but it's not too far off. One trigger and I'm 3 for 1 with 1 being a 2/2 body on the board. That's probably better than Harmonize and I've traded 1 CC for flying compared to Mulldrifter (a card I think is very good). And If you manage a truly dedicated enchantress deck, both these cards become really good.
This is certainly not a theme for higher powered cubes. Probably not ever honestly. But I don't think you have to come down too far off on power to make it draftable. My 2 cents.
My meta is slower and lower powered than yours Jason so we could be just talking apples and oranges and my thinking doesn't carry over. But Eidolon of Blossoms seems a fine play to me after I've built some board presence. It replaced itself automatically. If my opponent ignores it, it potentially generates more value. If they waste a kill spell on it, they've essentially self 2 for 1'd even if it was technically a tempo play. Doomwake is even more useful since he effectively wipes tokens and is a pretty meaty body for 5 mana. And if that doesn't die, it keeps killing 1/x dudes on the other side of the table. Even with just two or three other enchantments in my deck, I'm not unhappy with Doomwake honestly (I'd consider playing it with zero enchantment support). Eidolon needs a bit more help as the WCS is below curve even in my cube, but it's not too far off. One trigger and I'm 3 for 1 with 1 being a 2/2 body on the board. That's probably better than Harmonize and I've traded 1 CC for flying compared to Mulldrifter (a card I think is very good). And If you manage a truly dedicated enchantress deck, both these cards become really good.
This is certainly not a theme for higher powered cubes. Probably not ever honestly. But I don't think you have to come down too far off on power to make it draftable. My 2 cents.
Okay, so what you're saying is that we have different floors for what makes a playable card in our environments, and that a cantripping vanilla 2/2 for four mana is already somewhat respectable from a value perspective. Whereas if you have a higher power floor a card needs to reach, you place that much more of a burden on the card to pull its weight via synergies.
The problem I have with Eidolon of Blossoms as an engine is that it's a 4-mana card, so you have to hold you aura-based removal for Turn 5 to get value out of it. The body itself is pretty worthless in the same way that Oracle of Mul Daya is. It's kind of awkward to be having such a narrow card be taking up two 4-drop slots. Needing help to get to sub-mulldrifter status isn't super enticing.
In an ideal world, you're not holding anything back for Eidolon of Blossoms; you're just playing Normal Magic, and maybe you swapped in an enchantment for your 23rd spell over a creature. Then your turn five play is Boon Satyr or Herald of Torment or whatever, and you proc the trigger, and you're in business. Like ahadabans explains well above, it doesn't have to be an engine so much as a value card.
I think we probably do have different floors, yes. I'm much closer to Penny Pincher than I am to power max at this point, so a cantripping vanilla 2/2 for 4 is subpar but passable (made slightly more acceptable as it's green and therefore potentially a T3 play). If the bar for 4 drops is Polukranos, World Eater, I think the potential value from Eidolon of Blossoms (or enchantress in general) is a hard sell.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I find myself in complete agreement with ahadabans. In the test matches I did I have even been fine curving Utopia Sprawl into Courser of Kruphix into Eidolon of Blossoms, missing out on two triggers but curving out nicely and still getting some card advantage. Really, all you need is one extra trigger or one removal spell "wasted" on it to make Eidolon good!
Personally I also run
which has been very good in a very dedicated enchantment deck, but bad otherwise (unlike Eidolon and Doomwake). I like the card, but wish it were a bit stronger. I've tried cubing it with constellation sharpied on, but that was way too strong when it ended up in a dedicated enchantment deck, even at. Hmm...
How cool would it be if it was a Journey to Nowhere as well. It's an empty throne after all! That would be pretty boss I feel. I might want to try that out!
Personally I also run
which has been very good in a very dedicated enchantment deck, but bad otherwise (unlike Eidolon and Doomwake). I like the card, but wish it were a bit stronger. I've tried cubing it with constellation sharpied on, but that was way too strong when it ended up in a dedicated enchantment deck, even at
. Hmm...How cool would it be if it was a Journey to Nowhere as well. It's an empty throne after all! That would be pretty boss I feel. I might want to try that out!
How cool would it be if it was a Journey to Nowhere as well. It's an empty throne after all! That would be pretty boss I feel. I might want to try that out!
That sounds like a nice combination of stabiliser and wincon actually.
How cool would it be if it was a Journey to Nowhere as well. It's an empty throne after all! That would be pretty boss I feel. I might want to try that out!
the card is already miserable, don't take out their only flier at the same time
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
What, you're saying it's good enough as is? Miserable to play against even? I have never heard someone describe Sigil of the Empty Throne as miserable, so this is new to me! I'm curious to hear a more detailed opinion on the card.
CML
Contributor
kind of need a big density of themes. like think of small standard last year! the best deck ran 3 whip, 4 courser, 4 eidolon, 4 doomwake. this is like 11 enchantments for a 40-card deck, i guess you could get away with 9 maybe? but bear in mind this is a very small standard format with maximal enchantments, a low power level, and a leisurely pace that let you get away with this kind of durdling.
Yeah, I think both CML and ahadabans nailed the issue on the head - for the moment, anyways, enchantments are a low-powered theme, and probably don't have any place in high-powered cubes. The speed of the format is another big factor in determining whether a four mana value bear is at all viable, so I might have to dial down the aggro decks another notch or two.
Delirium is turning out to be a wild ride of environment design. Are there any Enchantment Creatures that totally could be included, but are a little fringe and so might be overlooked normally? It'd a be a solid way to overcome the delirium barrier, having two types on one card is just so nice.
etc?
etc?If and only if you play multiplayer, Grim Guardian is legit in a Bx/Xb enchantment control deck. He was the all-star of my wife's deck when we played in that 2HG prerelease.
Everflame Eidolon and Gnarled Scarhide are also cool for more aggressive enchantment decks.
Everflame Eidolon and Gnarled Scarhide are also cool for more aggressive enchantment decks.