But Elderwood Scion only works with auras, doesn't it? Would be cool if it was an enchantment, but it obviously isn't from Theros.
Card/Deck How to execute a minimalist Enchantment theme
- Thread starter Diakonov
- Start date
It was made for the planechase aura deck, but if you want to get -technical,- pump spell costs are also reduced. So, like, temur battle rage would cost R. Even though it isn't an enchantment itself, I feel like being an evasive trample lifelinker is worth the cmc even without too many buffs.
The card looks very cool, but that color pair has too much great stuff... It's cool as something that aims at an auras archetype in GW during the draft, tho.
I had the Planechase deck with Elderwood Scion as one of my first decks. That card is really good at enabling super expensive auras like Pollenbright Wings, Indrik Umbra, and Angelic Destiny. The psuedo built in protection is nice but I don't really like it for smaller auras which I think would prefer to run over something big like Eldrazi Conscription (Which I think might be an interesting archetype at a different power level). It just feels like you wouldn't want to wait until ~ turn 5 to play Rancor and Ethereal Armor.
These could be interesting enablers for that kind of big aura strategy.
They seem nice because they're built in tutors and you're not really 2 for 1 ing yourself. I don't know what kind of cube would want this but it seems interesting. These 3 along with the Scion make things like Eldrazi Conscription not cost 8 mana.
Jumping back to something more reasonable, I think this is an interesting card.
It doesn't work with every enchantment, but if you decide to push enchantment theme towards auras it seems like a nice card. It's not as narrow as Kor Spiritdancer and the 2/2 body is meh but serviceable. If the aura deck doesn't come together it'll do just fine drawing a card off of Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear. I kind of like it as a mediocre card for white weenie that adds "Draw a card" to things like Rancor and Bonds of Faith.
I'll finish off with these auras that I like although they might not be viable. I really like these cards with pingers. It could be miserable if all of your removal spells had "Draw a card" stapled on though.
These could be interesting enablers for that kind of big aura strategy.
They seem nice because they're built in tutors and you're not really 2 for 1 ing yourself. I don't know what kind of cube would want this but it seems interesting. These 3 along with the Scion make things like Eldrazi Conscription not cost 8 mana.
Jumping back to something more reasonable, I think this is an interesting card.
It doesn't work with every enchantment, but if you decide to push enchantment theme towards auras it seems like a nice card. It's not as narrow as Kor Spiritdancer and the 2/2 body is meh but serviceable. If the aura deck doesn't come together it'll do just fine drawing a card off of Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear. I kind of like it as a mediocre card for white weenie that adds "Draw a card" to things like Rancor and Bonds of Faith.
I'll finish off with these auras that I like although they might not be viable. I really like these cards with pingers. It could be miserable if all of your removal spells had "Draw a card" stapled on though.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Sounds like you're whispering shade at every Peasant cube ever
Sram is kinda intriguing. The problem with Aura or equipment (or Vehicle tbh) subthemes is that they are too shallow individually; between them you can muster ~15 solid cards that trigger Sram, but you can't play too many because they all demand a certain creature density (accounting for Living Weapon, Bestow etc). You're right that the base case of drawing one card is perfectly fine
Zur the enchanter seems really neat. Probably, like most 3C cards, only pickable basically within the first few picks, but still neat. I really like that he ties in well with my miniature enchantent removal suite, which I've put in to bolster delirium. I guess the only problem is do people expect to be able to get powerful auras to buff and protect him? Wouldn't want to trap someone thinking they can pull a cool voltron deck together when he only has control effects to grab.
Some neat stuff he can grab:
Some neat stuff he can grab:
I was thinking of a Goblin Sharpshooter enchanted by Curiosity. No disrespect to Ribbons of Night!
I think Zur is pretty neat but I agree that he can be misleading. If voltron was a thing though, grabbing a Seal of Doom or Prison Term before blockers seems pretty neat.
The idea of a Zur Enchantment based control decks seems like it could be fun. You could do techy, inefficient things like putting a Seal of Doom on top of your library with Brainstorm and then immediately finding it with Zur instead of casting it.
It's not in Zur's colors but I would probably try to make this happen and then get upset when it spends 10 turns in my hand.
I'd be that person jamming 4 colors for sure 
. I mean:
!
Regardless, I might give Zur a test run for a couple drafts. Having the redundancy of enlightened tutor gives more consistency to having the toolbox in the first place. Another positive mark for see beyond also.
. I mean:!Regardless, I might give Zur a test run for a couple drafts. Having the redundancy of enlightened tutor gives more consistency to having the toolbox in the first place. Another positive mark for see beyond also.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The main problem with zur is that he costs 4 (color complex) mana and has to land an attack. You don't want this to be a situation where the interaction in the cube makes drafting and simply resolving zur a game losing mistake.
Zur into things like O-Ring or Pacifism effects is pretty fun and can be powerful. 4 is a lot to pay though and you'd probably want to lean towards a more terror type black removal suite (so he's a less risky investment).
Another cool thing with Zur... because he puts things like Pacifism into play directly, they can be dropped on shroud/hexproof dudes (since auras only target when played not once in play). Armadillo Cloak on my Simic Sky Swallower sounds cool. Playing 4 colors for that does not sound cool though.
Another cool thing with Zur... because he puts things like Pacifism into play directly, they can be dropped on shroud/hexproof dudes (since auras only target when played not once in play). Armadillo Cloak on my Simic Sky Swallower sounds cool. Playing 4 colors for that does not sound cool though.
I would treat him more like a pseudo Thieving Magpie in an Esper control deck rather than something to specifically build around, and adjust the cube around him so that there's a high density of enchantments to fetch. Zur is one of those cards I find interesting because with some minor changes to the cube list (Mesmeric Fiend[/ci] ->
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The framing as a narrow ophidion seems kind of miserable. I kind of feel like the tutoring has to win the game to justify all of the trouble.
Like you're basically a combo-control deck in Esper
Like you're basically a combo-control deck in Esper
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Zur is a strong value card. I built a casual deck around it and if they can't remove him and you have a deck with a bunch of useful enchantments, you will snowball them with value. His ability in a deck built around him is way way way better than draw a card. 40% of cards drawn are lands. Some percentage will be cards you don't want or need. Zur though fetches specific cards. It's a repeatable tutor.
Biggest argument against him is tri-color casting cost. And that you'd need a lot of targets in your deck (I'd want at least 5 I think). So if he makes a list, he will likely be cool and give some good stories. But he'll be making decks once every 15 drafts unless someone becomes obsessed with drafting the Zur deck.
If you have a player that really is attracted to him, run it. It's one card slot and the fun factor will be high for the person trying to build around him. I'm very confident this card is good enough in a lower powered riptide cube.
Biggest argument against him is tri-color casting cost. And that you'd need a lot of targets in your deck (I'd want at least 5 I think). So if he makes a list, he will likely be cool and give some good stories. But he'll be making decks once every 15 drafts unless someone becomes obsessed with drafting the Zur deck.
If you have a player that really is attracted to him, run it. It's one card slot and the fun factor will be high for the person trying to build around him. I'm very confident this card is good enough in a lower powered riptide cube.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The big factor to keep in mind is this analysis from owen turtenwald about why the reflector mage ban was healthy for standard. The relevant part starts at 14:30
Sorry for making you watch part of a youtube video, but this is a really concise explanation of the problem with otherwise exciting cards like woodland wanderer, gitrog monster, and zur within the context of NWO design--they are secretly quite bad, though they can yield anecdotally positive experiences. This is more of an issue with NWO design than power level--zur would be bad within the context of the penny cube, regardless of the quality of the supporting enchantments.
Sorry for making you watch part of a youtube video, but this is a really concise explanation of the problem with otherwise exciting cards like woodland wanderer, gitrog monster, and zur within the context of NWO design--they are secretly quite bad, though they can yield anecdotally positive experiences. This is more of an issue with NWO design than power level--zur would be bad within the context of the penny cube, regardless of the quality of the supporting enchantments.
It's becoming really clear how important context is. Spending time working on a combo oriented list, it's forcing me to reevaluate a lot of cards (in some cases wildly reevaluate). So I would agree with you there. If you have a list with a ton of bounce, auras in general are bad (so a card that relied on fetching them would be equally effected I think). Zur can get combo cards though - Necropotence, etc - so it has some other uses (I ran it in a deck with counterbalance / top). Still, there are definitely lists you shouldn't run cards like that in (specifically ones where board states can be undone easily).
Just watching that video reminds me why I hate constructed Magic.
It's just too easy to break this game when you can run multiples. That's the root of the problem. A lot of what you see degenerating in standard - say Treasure Cruise - when you only have one copy, you simply can't abuse it to the same level. Is Treasure Cruise still too good? In some cube lists, probably. But no one is going to completely break your meta using Treasure Cruise. First they have to draft it every time in a deck that can break it. And then reliably draw it consistently. This sort of thing just doesn't happen in cube. It's why you see power maxers who clearly play a shit ton of cube defending cards that are very clearly stupid. Because it's just so so much more difficult to exploit a single copy of a card in a draft only environment.
It's just too easy to break this game when you can run multiples. That's the root of the problem. A lot of what you see degenerating in standard - say Treasure Cruise - when you only have one copy, you simply can't abuse it to the same level. Is Treasure Cruise still too good? In some cube lists, probably. But no one is going to completely break your meta using Treasure Cruise. First they have to draft it every time in a deck that can break it. And then reliably draw it consistently. This sort of thing just doesn't happen in cube. It's why you see power maxers who clearly play a shit ton of cube defending cards that are very clearly stupid. Because it's just so so much more difficult to exploit a single copy of a card in a draft only environment.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
And because it's fun to bust out the nut draw once in a while?
I really think it's about the single copy more than any other factor.
Show me a deck you can reliably draft that runs the table each draft and does so because of a single card in said deck. I'm not talking about one night where the nut reanimator deck comes together and your are ripping every card you need off the top of your library. I mean each and every draft, deck "X" comes together, goes 3-0 and that is happening because of one single card.
Closest thing anyone has to this is likely RDW. And that's because most lists run the best aggro cards ever printed (and as many as they can) with every single broken burn spell. So not because of one card but because we now have a critical mass of efficient beaters and burn spells that you can make a constructed consistent aggro deck in many cubes.
Show me a deck you can reliably draft that runs the table each draft and does so because of a single card in said deck. I'm not talking about one night where the nut reanimator deck comes together and your are ripping every card you need off the top of your library. I mean each and every draft, deck "X" comes together, goes 3-0 and that is happening because of one single card.
Closest thing anyone has to this is likely RDW. And that's because most lists run the best aggro cards ever printed (and as many as they can) with every single broken burn spell. So not because of one card but because we now have a critical mass of efficient beaters and burn spells that you can make a constructed consistent aggro deck in many cubes.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think we have to keep in mind too that cube is a purely casual format, so its easier to justify high variance cards.
I also think there is quite a bit of de facto redundancy in cube lists that can quietly frame a format. Accidental density of Signets, bouncelands, ramp, fetchlands, ETB creatures, planeswalkers, draw spells, sweepers, cantrips can all strongly push a format in favor of one strategy over others. Sure treasure cruise isn't the same card as dig through time or fact or fiction, but if our format favors midrange blue card draw as a strategy, being different doesn't change that those cards are ultimately fueling the same strategy. Its a really hard trap to avoid; one where your seeming diversity of cards all flow into what are operationally identical decks, that than dominate the format.
I've been drinking espresso all day so I realize this might not be my most coherent post, but yeah.
I also think there is quite a bit of de facto redundancy in cube lists that can quietly frame a format. Accidental density of Signets, bouncelands, ramp, fetchlands, ETB creatures, planeswalkers, draw spells, sweepers, cantrips can all strongly push a format in favor of one strategy over others. Sure treasure cruise isn't the same card as dig through time or fact or fiction, but if our format favors midrange blue card draw as a strategy, being different doesn't change that those cards are ultimately fueling the same strategy. Its a really hard trap to avoid; one where your seeming diversity of cards all flow into what are operationally identical decks, that than dominate the format.
I've been drinking espresso all day so I realize this might not be my most coherent post, but yeah.
I think where I'm coming from specifically is in breaking the game versus pushing general strategies. What you are describing is definitely true - those cards will push control and that will impact your meta. I was really referring to things like 4 copies of Gitaxian Probe fueling delve (taken straight from the video - talking about a turn 2 kill). It's very hard to replicate that specific sort of degeneracy in cube. Very few decks you could even build in the average cube can land a T2 kill. And the even ones that can will do it once in 10 draws if that. This sort of thing can be balanced by simply not being very probable. If you can build a deck that reliably does it though (as in constructed), it just ruins the meta.
Draft environments I feel have massive advantages over constructed ones primary because of how much more resilient they are to having the meta broken down in this way.
Draft environments I feel have massive advantages over constructed ones primary because of how much more resilient they are to having the meta broken down in this way.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think though some of the unhealthiness he describes can be replicated in cube. Sure you don't have multiple copies of git probe, but there are lots of cheap bounce, counters, and man-o'-war clones to supplement that single copy of reflector mage, for example.
It just depends on how many similar effects exist.
It just depends on how many similar effects exist.