Reflector Mage I was pretty sure would be insane due to the delay on recast. That is just massive tempo. Man-O-War I never though of as all that bad primarily because it's such a lackluster body. Gets better with blink synergy, but paying 3 for a sorcery speed unsummon and a useless 2/2 doesn't hurt that many decks. GitrogMonster.dec is super unhappy, but how many cubes are even bothering with that card? Big fat things with large tempo loss on bounce are still worth the risk/reward because again - there is only one copy of man-o-war (OK, Vensar and Reflector). But even the bounce deck won't reliably have a way to beat the drop-a-fattie-each-turn player every game. That's only true in something like cube though. I completely get his point in standard and have zero arguments there.
Card/Deck How to execute a minimalist Enchantment theme
- Thread starter Diakonov
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Even before we go into cheap removal in other colors, as regards just bounce (leaving out control magic effects etc), these are cards that I would be looking at as contributing to that density:
Just like in constructed, you won't punish them every time, but its enough to make the inclusion of an entire sub-set of creatures questionable, and its far too subtle in the way it goes about it. The worst part is that it uniquely punishes casual players.
There is a certain critical density of any effect, that once reached, lends itself towards an almost constructed like consistency. And this is even before we take into account tutors, cantrips, card draw, or other mechanisms to manipulate the deck to make sure you find singleton copies of powerful effects. The latter is a big reason why blue is so absurd, and why you could (i.m.o) run actively bad cantrips compared to the power level of the rest of the format, and probably be fine.
Just like in constructed, you won't punish them every time, but its enough to make the inclusion of an entire sub-set of creatures questionable, and its far too subtle in the way it goes about it. The worst part is that it uniquely punishes casual players.
There is a certain critical density of any effect, that once reached, lends itself towards an almost constructed like consistency. And this is even before we take into account tutors, cantrips, card draw, or other mechanisms to manipulate the deck to make sure you find singleton copies of powerful effects. The latter is a big reason why blue is so absurd, and why you could (i.m.o) run actively bad cantrips compared to the power level of the rest of the format, and probably be fine.
That's fair. I like that you are exploring a different meta that avoids cards like this. Because I think the argument against them (and how it punishes newer players) is extremely valid.
For the record, I think this is a much less significant problem in a combo list. Because these card disproportionately hurt grinder midrange decks. Cards like snap I'd almost argue are necessary in a meta with T3 reanimator and tinker decks floating around. Those are the only cards that really punish that sort of strategy.
For the record, I think this is a much less significant problem in a combo list. Because these card disproportionately hurt grinder midrange decks. Cards like snap I'd almost argue are necessary in a meta with T3 reanimator and tinker decks floating around. Those are the only cards that really punish that sort of strategy.
Stuff About Modern
A lot of interesting discussion going on in this thread! I agree with Grillo that certain effects can quietly frame a format. The video that was posted about the Reflector Mage ban reminded me of Modern and how certain things subtly warped the format at one point or another with the two big ones being:
How It Relates to Cube
With that being said, I think if you want to play with cards like Zur and Big Frog you have to do one of two things.
Completely Different Point Now
A while back I was looking through the cubetutor champion features and one of them is the ability to seed packs a certain way. I don't really like the idea of seeing packs, but I thought it was an interesting way to ensure certain build arounds get in the draft early enough to actually see play if people want to go deep that draft. This was inspired by the comment that Zur is a super narrow 3 color card (Siege Rhino he is not) which I think is a super valid assessment.
For an example. In an 8 person draft there are 8 15 card packs which equals 120 cards. You want to add these cards into your cube because they enable neat and unique things, but you don't want to see them wheeling every single draft for 5 years.
I think there could be merit to choosing one of these at random and slipping it into one of those 8 packs. (In this example) I know there could be logistics problems if you do drafts back to back and you could also talk about ruining of the integrity of the draft, but I think it could be an interesting experiment. It's kind of like a modular cube on a much smaller scale. I don't know if I would ever do something like this, but I think about it once in a while.
Back to Enchantments
Also related to the topic of the thread. I like the idea of subtly swapping cards with enchantments with similar effects to support any theme you might end up incorporating.
A lot of interesting discussion going on in this thread! I agree with Grillo that certain effects can quietly frame a format. The video that was posted about the Reflector Mage ban reminded me of Modern and how certain things subtly warped the format at one point or another with the two big ones being:
- Splinter Twin invalidating a lot of decks that wanted to tap out on turn 3 as well as demanding decks be able to answer the combo.
- Lightning Bolt having an ominous, overbearing presence in modern that dictates what creatures can be played.
How It Relates to Cube
With that being said, I think if you want to play with cards like Zur and Big Frog you have to do one of two things.
- Adjust your format to make these cards playable (that Ravniva-Kamigawa-Lorwyn-Time Spiral-Mirrodin cube idea keeps popping up!)
- Throw caution to the wind and accept that these cards will lead to feel bads probably about as often as they lead to memorable stories.
Completely Different Point Now
A while back I was looking through the cubetutor champion features and one of them is the ability to seed packs a certain way. I don't really like the idea of seeing packs, but I thought it was an interesting way to ensure certain build arounds get in the draft early enough to actually see play if people want to go deep that draft. This was inspired by the comment that Zur is a super narrow 3 color card (Siege Rhino he is not) which I think is a super valid assessment.
For an example. In an 8 person draft there are 8 15 card packs which equals 120 cards. You want to add these cards into your cube because they enable neat and unique things, but you don't want to see them wheeling every single draft for 5 years.
I think there could be merit to choosing one of these at random and slipping it into one of those 8 packs. (In this example) I know there could be logistics problems if you do drafts back to back and you could also talk about ruining of the integrity of the draft, but I think it could be an interesting experiment. It's kind of like a modular cube on a much smaller scale. I don't know if I would ever do something like this, but I think about it once in a while.
Back to Enchantments
Also related to the topic of the thread. I like the idea of subtly swapping cards with enchantments with similar effects to support any theme you might end up incorporating.
The formatting of this post feels like abomination. The bold made me feel better, but those numbered bullets man.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Speaking of seal of fire and similar effects.
I wish sun titan was a little less "I win the game now," because the triggered ability on it is really cool. You can create some pretty amazing lines of play getting back an animate dead and so forth.
I wish sun titan was a little less "I win the game now," because the triggered ability on it is really cool. You can create some pretty amazing lines of play getting back an animate dead and so forth.
Seal of fire is great - theme or no it's just a good card. And in a lower artifact/enchantment environment, seal of cleansing is nice because you don't have to hold it up and lose tempo when you have no target.
I very much like the way seals change how your opponent plays.
I very much like the way seals change how your opponent plays.
Speaking of seal of fire and similar effects.
I wish sun titan was a little less "I win the game now," because the triggered ability on it is really cool. You can create some pretty amazing lines of play getting back an animate dead and so forth.
One time I was playing EDH and I had a Progenitor Mimic and Phantasmal Image churning out copies of Sun Titan every turn. I think I ended the game with 6 Sun Titans in play.
I was messing around with this guy and I found this really neat interaction.
The second Oath sends one of them to the graveyard which you can then get back with the Rallier.
I have super high hopes for this card.
Ouch. Forgot about that cmc restriction. It just looks bad than
DOES IT? DOES IT REALLY?
On a more serious note, between
I think that there's enough here if you're going in the heavy U/W enchantments theme to make eldrazi conscription playable, if you have like... all the above cards listed in your cube.
I think that there's enough here if you're going in the heavy U/W enchantments theme to make eldrazi conscription playable, if you have like... all the above cards listed in your cube.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
For an example. In an 8 person draft there are 8 15 card packs which equals 120 cards. You want to add these cards into your cube because they enable neat and unique things, but you don't want to see them wheeling every single draft for 5 years.
I think there could be merit to choosing one of these at random and slipping it into one of those 8 packs. (In this example) I know there could be logistics problems if you do drafts back to back and you could also talk about ruining of the integrity of the draft, but I think it could be an interesting experiment. It's kind of like a modular cube on a much smaller scale. I don't know if I would ever do something like this, but I think about it once in a while.
In my cube you get a free tapland with every three color card (for example, Zur the Enchanter would give you an Arcane Sanctum), enticing people to pick the three color card because it also comes with fixing (and fixing is good), but also enticing them to play with it, since you already have the fixing. Try it, it works!
Wow, a lot of good discussion from little old Zur! Taking bits and pieces from above, I think I'll be "throwing caution to the wind", so to speak. I'm ok with having a couple higher variance cards in my cube. My format seems to allow for >2 color 'experiments', as our last draft night had not one but 2 decks splashing for a fourth color to further their gameplan (and not just be goodstuff piles). I've already replaced effects with artifact/enchantment version of effect, and it works great for 'hiding' important subtypes in the fabric of the format. I might make one or two more swaps but overall I'm very happy with my enchantment suite as is for testing Zur out.
The class of enchantments I might try to find room for one of to flush out what Zur can do for you:
I just added in cycling lands to my BLB. One new land rule at a time!
Edit: checking through my list, Zur literally grabs every enchantment in the cube except one, and one is worthless to grab. That's a pretty good % imo
The class of enchantments I might try to find room for one of to flush out what Zur can do for you:
I just added in cycling lands to my BLB. One new land rule at a time!
Edit: checking through my list, Zur literally grabs every enchantment in the cube except one, and one is worthless to grab. That's a pretty good % imo
Zur with flash would be fun.
I was looking through white 3 drops and this guy seems like it can offset the whole getting 2 for 1'd problem that auras have if it lives. A deck that reanimates big auras seems pretty goofy and kind of reinforces the fetching out big auras theme. It's too bad that it can't hit stuff like Prison Term though. The card's probably not good but I just wanted to share.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I would have gladly traded a point of power for two points of toughness on that card...
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
The other way around actually, Nomad Mythmaker as a 1/4. Maybe I phrased that the wrong way around? English is not my native language, so I slip up every now and then
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Your English is fine, that's just Chris being Chris
Mythmaker + Eldrazi Conscription was a really fun casual deck but the card only works in a VMA-style Cube
Mythmaker + Eldrazi Conscription was a really fun casual deck but the card only works in a VMA-style Cube
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I feel like I'd be so much more aproachable sometimes if I used fewer emoji
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Eh, don't worry about it, I've just been pretty tired lately, and my interpreting skill have gone down accordingly...
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Hey, come on. Don't drag me down to his level
This is the closest you can get, but I think your power level needs to be veeery low for this interaction to be worth it.
I was going to say it doesn't hit things like Pacifism profitably haha. That is a neat interaction however.