General It's time to put your cube on a diet

Some discussion on here and me recently putting together one of those 2-player battle box-stacks got me thinking about creature sizes. I haven't had a chance to play the boxes yet (2 identical to enable scry) but I've been cautious to include any creatures with too big a butt. This, to try and avoid board stalls and to make games shorter.

Is it possible it's time for us to start looking closer to the average size of our creatures in cube? Thanks to some recent sets we now play 4/5s for pretty cheap. Red removal have a hard time dealing with anything above 3 toughness and 2/1s for one quickly become irrelevant with good blockers coming down usually turn 3 but sometimes even turn 2.

Is it time to put our cubes on a diet if we want to keep playing weenies, or is it time to cute out weenies once and for all?
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I like this topic.

There are a lot more tough creatures worth playing further down the mana curve and I think you are right that we need to critically question which ones we include and what decks that want to win off of 2/xs need to do to win.

My cube, for example, has tons of ways to make little dudes bigger or give them evasion. Giving Isamaru an Elephant Guide will get him around Tasigur, the Golden Fang just fine. When I do my update, I'm going to probably increase red's access to falter/menace effects so that burn isn't the only way to push damage home. Nobody wants to fall into the paradigm where aggro decks win because your cube's mana curve is too high/mana is too shitty, we want interesting gamestates where deciding where/when to drop a blocker vs. holding for removal is interesting and opaque. I cut finks because it was always the right answer in any beatdown situation. I don't think its time to cut weenies, there are plenty of ways to give them play. If you want to be proactive starting on turn one, that should be an option. Including cards that let weenies continue to play the game after the early game has ended is awesome, games that come down to a dps check are kinda dumb. Be it dictate of heliod, blood artist, wonder, goblin bombardment, you've got options here. If you are finding that little dudes are being aggressively outclassed by crazy good blockers, you can cut back on the fat or aggressively support aggressive support.
 
I've been thinking about something similar, but from a different angle. I think sometimes when we traditionally think about weenie decks, it's old school style red deck wins where you make cheap efficient creatures, burn things out of the way and then burn their face to win, fireblast optional.

I don't think that leads to a necessarily satisfying game experience (especially for the person on the other end of the fireblast). Which got me to thinking about how aggro decks could still put on pressure, but from a different standpoint. (There's also an aggro thread around somewhere which will be of interest, and Grillo's cube list for the penny pincher cube I believe would be a useful read). At the moment, my early thinking is along the lines of:



Which is basically creatures with evasion as you can see. :) It doesn't mean no burn, but having high toughness creatures shouldn't shut down an aggro deck completely. You just need to give it the tools to compete. Maybe also worth thinking about removal too. Should we be playing more

?

I think prowess probably has a place here too, as does blue bounce spells, tap effects and distortion strikes. I'm not sure it's fair to lay the blame completely at the power max mentality doorstep, but the drive for more efficient creatures perhaps can lead to forgetting why you had things in the deck in the first place. Having a strong understanding of why cards should be there will help with cube design, though every time there's a new set with exciting cards to try there's the danger of diluting those principles through the cult of the new.

Raven's comments in the other thread about babying aggro holds true, I guess it's about trying to have balance in your environment.
 
Agree with Alfonso and FSR, though for sure life has been better since I've cut Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Let's compile a list of interesting cards that support aggro dudes as the game gets long! I'll try to contribute later.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think the overrall problem is running too great of a density of value midrange creatures. In small douses they are reasonable, as the combination of getting a body and spell to recoup lost tempo either from an aggro rush or control's removal, can help midrange stabilize. However, in large douses it just warps the format because that effect is just so strong. Aggro decks have to become faster, more focused, and unfun, while control has to run cheaper and more efficent removal (that wizard's isn't printing anymore) to try to keep pace with decks that get spells attached to their creatures.

Drafting around midrange value cards becomes a strategy in its own right, because it lets you run effectively twice as much action as everyone else, since you are simultaneously getting spells and threats.

Besides policing the number of value ETB guys, the other big break through for me was running a bunch of temporary protection, hexproof effects, growth, or evasion effects.




They added a fishesque feel to my aggro decks, which could now operate by presenting threats and than protecting them, using colors other than just cheap blue counters. It also gave them the ability to leverage hidden information by picking off enemy creatures, and helped balance out strategies built around board stalling (midrange or tokens).

I think this is why its not really so important for me to have a huge density of heroic triggers, because its less you are running a heroic deck, and more you are running a fish deck. I don't think every cube should be running those exact cards, but I do think its helpful to think in terms of "what kind of disruption" can I give my aggro decks or "how can I support fish in my environment."

Those types of effects also mean I don't have to make compromises on the quality or density of my removal, since its not really possible for removal to smother out parts of the environment (though I do think reasonable conditions on removal is fun). Moving away from the topic of fun wonky board states, you're giving aggro decks tools to both build and to maintain an impactful board presence to compete with midrange, but at the same time control isn't having their answers neutered.

I also really like sources of burst damage for aggro decks, as perceived pressure is both a valuable tool for them to leverage, and provides them a means to comeback from behind. This is also why more fun than giving them fireblast.

Since I evidently did a terrible job in the last thread explaining what perceived pressure is in regards to this card, what you are doing is forcing your opponent to play around something, which can become disruption in its own right. Holding back blockers because they are afraid of a potential goblin bushwhacker hit, casting removal at sub-optimal times because you don't want to die to a fabled hero on the attack step, directing removal at ninja of the deep hours rather than delver of secrets because ninja's card draw could shut them out of the game, or making bad blocks to prevent you from growing a creature to the point it becomes a midrange contender.

I don't think you have to necessarly not run big creatures though, and I really like a lot of the delve fatties. It just helps to give aggro decks tools to outpace, outgrow, go around, or go through the midrange decks. Traditionally, people have just focused on outpacing, which they had to do because power max (whether signet ramp or value ETB) just suffocates so many aggro strategies.
 

Aoret

Developer
This is really good stuff Grillo (as usual). I'm not very familiar with your environment; do you have a read on how well some of these cards work in a typical riptide environment? (i.e. which might I want to try running first?)

My list is just a modified version of Jason's old list. I netdecked that shit like a year ago and have just been making changes ever since
 
I noticed R/X aggro was terrible against midrange in my cube, so as an effort to fight midrange, I switched several of my burn spells for ones that are good against larger creatures:


There are still several spells that burn for 2, but I found there were too many of them, and even cutting several, red retains the ability to kill a lot small creatures efficiently.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This is really good stuff Grillo (as usual). I'm not very familiar with your environment; do you have a read on how well some of these cards work in a typical riptide environment? (i.e. which might I want to try running first?)

My list is just a modified version of Jason's old list. I netdecked that shit like a year ago and have just been making changes ever since


Of those I've listed, the ones I've seen in other riptide lists are vines, feat, shelter, emerge unscathed, and become immense. The only ones I think would fit into Jason's exact cube would be vines and I only say that because vines sees legacy play.
 
How's beacon worked out?


I've put it in recently, hasn't been played yet. On paper, it's nice that it's a Lava Axe when you want it to be one, goes as high as burn usually goes, instant speed, and goes back to your library providing inevitability. 5 mana makes it not so good for aggro, though.

Of those I've listed, the ones I've seen in other riptide lists are vines, feat, shelter, emerge unscathed, and become immense. The only ones I think would fit into Jason's exact cube would be vines and I only say that because vines sees legacy play.


Has anyone tried Stonewood Invocation? Vines of Vastwood is a fine trick in my cube, the option of casting it defensively for only G makes it consistent.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Stonewood is too expensive for aggro, unfortunatly.

I gave a lot of thought as to how to respond, and honestly, I think the best solution is to first trim the midrange value guys. Aggro is a weird beast in the sense that nearly identical lists can play dramatically different depending on how much space they have to work with in the metagame. The problem could correct itself.

I still think a lot of the ideas I see here are really good and worth pursuing: prowess, menace, dash, aggro friendly removal--but the problem might not need an invasive solution.

If you wanted to go deeper, I would say that the essence of a fish strategy is cheap counterspells for your aggro decks. Since blue is such a poor aggro color, the best thing to do is try to run as many of those temp. protection and hexproof effects as are feasible. Another possibility is cheap blink effects, like stave off otherworldly journey.
 
If you wanted to go deeper, I would say that the essence of a fish strategy is cheap counterspells for your aggro decks. Since blue is such a poor aggro color, the best thing to do is try to run as many of those temp. protection and hexproof effects as are feasible. Another possibility is cheap blink effects, like stave off.
Did you mean Cloudshift?

I've been pushing U/X aggro pretty hard. It's tough to get people to bite since they're unaccustomed to it, but it's really not so terrible these days.
 
Hmm, now i want to try Otherworldly Journey in my Cube... Maybe use it on Finks after a "bad" attack, hehehe.
Also, good synergy with my Boros double-strikers... Lets me re-pair Silverblade in response to removal, for example.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Hmm, now i want to try Otherworldly Journey in my Cube... Maybe use it on Finks after a "bad" attack, hehehe.
Also, good synergy with my Boros double-strikers... Lets me re-pair Silverblade in response to removal, for example.

Otherworldly Journey no (since it returns at end of turn) but cloudshift yes
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That seems like a pretty legit interaction. Double strikers removing a blocker like that can be game winning, and is something else for an opp to play around.

You might like feat of resistance too, its good in all of those spots.

Blink is also nice to counter pacifism effects and tap effects.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, its still blocked. Its just nice saving a threat like that, and having a 3/3 doublestrike dude around for the next turn.

The only ability that goes through in that situaton is trample, I think.
 
But maybe I misunderstood, was the double striker attacking or blocking? Blinking a double/firststriker after it deals first strike damage I guess is cute enough!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Actually, since we play with damage on the stack, I think that means the damage would still happen in our playgroup. You would just blink in response to the damage trigger.

Maybe this is an example of why they got rid of damage on the stack. :D
 
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