General Ixlan Spoiler

[sigh]

Then it must be tested. All of these need to be tested, honestly. They have middling/subpar fronts with insanely high value backs for the mana investment, but in a form we've never dealt with before.

FWIW, I do think these should be judged partially on their ceiling. It should be an active goal to meet the criteria because a free ramp + utility effect is very strong.

I know I have 1 to 2 slots that could easily become this, so I'll try it out.

 

[Salmo2]

The mana investment for the backside is 4 a turn, which is a real cost. Or it's a plains at some point, probably on t4 at best. Free ramp is nice, but I'm not getting excited about ramp that requires me to attack with three creatures, since that's typically the type of deck that wants ramp the least. We've seen this happen a lot with Gideon/Kytheon where he won't immediately flip at the point where you could have three creatures because of removal or not wanting to alpha in with creatures and lose value/need to hold some amount of mana up, and while this is different in that regard it's still the same in keeping three creatures on the board sometimes being a herculean task in cube. So for a number of turns your W investment will be a 1/1 lifelinker, which feels bad.

But unlike with Kytheon, which heavily rewards you once you flip him since he's a pretty great PWer on the backside, you get a land with an expensive activated ability that makes 1/1s. Sometimes you'll be able to use the extra mana, sometimes you can sac it, sometimes you can invest the 4 mana to get a soldier...but that doesn't really feel great, I don't feel like I'm getting rewarded with that type of return, and if I'm successfully attacking with 3 creatures I most likely want to start closing the game out, not just making 1/1s. It'll be good insurance vs wraths, but even then that requires a specific series of plays to get to that point, and decks with wraths will also be able to stop you from getting 3 attackers enough to make this inconsistent.

The other cards seem a lot more appealing because they go in shells that can really use the mana investment and want to get into long(er) games where you have time to play your spells and then activate the backside. If this is the type of spell that appeals to you for this type of deck, I would look toward Kjeldoran Outpost first if you're not running it, as I think the cheaper cost of activation and losing a land is a bit more better from an attrition/soldier spew point of view vs a 1/1 and more creatures to flip to pay more for soldiers. I'll be watching testing results from others, but it would have to be across-the-board positivity on the card since in theory it looks really 'meh'.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Then it must be tested. All of these need to be tested, honestly. They have middling/subpar fronts with insanely high value backs for the mana investment, but in a form we've never dealt with before.

FWIW, I do think these should be judged partially on their ceiling. It should be an active goal to meet the criteria because a free ramp + utility effect is very strong.

I know I have 1 to 2 slots that could easily become this, so I'll try it out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the ramp is the most interesting part of these cards, as it represents a color bleed we've not seen before.

Testing is fine, but with something so weird and unique, their can be perspectives to the cards and the way they layer with existing cards that are completly new or non-obvious and won't come out in standard cube arrangments. These might be cards that shouldn't be thought of fitting into existing structures, so much as cards that we can shape new structures around.

Already with the set, it would be prudent to re-examine the vampires for example, and since so many of them are vampire knights, that hakkon card is probably worth another look. These are weird cards that convert non-land pernaments into lands, maybe that interlays into some of the land sacrifice/ recursion themes we've been talking about. Rules wise, can I grim discovery these cards from the yard, and does that mean anything if I can? Is this a weird way to break symmetry on otherwise symmetrical land sacrifice cards etc.

My main concern with this card is boros average aggro decks runs it as part of the go-wide theme, and its bad. Is there a way to work around that?

Lots of interesting analysis. The prowess deck is also interesting because we got that new vertical growth spell cast creature, so that bant spells deck probably deserves another look.

 

[Salmo2]

Flip cards always resort to their front side when they die; they are not lands in the GY.

• 711.4a While a double-faced card is outside the game, in a zone other than the battlefield, or on the battlefield with its front face up, it has only the characteristics of its front face.

 

[sigh]

I think its more likely the non-obvious power/angles/layers won't come out in theory-crafting because its a pile of subtle additions, and formats are flexible in ways even the managers don't know.

I have at least one slot I feel is not seeing play, so its no opportunity cost for me to try.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think its more likely the non-obvious power/angles/layers won't come out in theory-crafting because its a pile of subtle additions, and formats are flexible in ways even the managers don't know.

I have at least one slot I feel is not seeing play, so its no opportunity cost for me to try.

What are your expectations from the card?

 

[sigh]

What are your expectations from the card?

The really blunt answer is "more than what the slot is doing now (nothing)".

Besides that basically all the reasons I've mentioned above. Reach against control, value engine for tempo decks, repeatable bodies for equipment, provide a burst of cost-efficient ramp for midrange decks (UW tempo, BW grind). Think it will be a solid 1 drop for me.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

This looks like a really good one drop for b/w grind, but that deck already has tons of good one drops. I don't think any of the enchantment matters decks really want this card. I'm not sure how much mainstream w/x midrange or go-wide aggro want this, but it does give (relatively weak) inevitability after your three dudes inevitable get valued off the table along with a weird form of ramp. It also might have applications in the pridemate deck. It seems playable in a slot that often goes to interchangeable throwaway cards anyway. I'm not excited over it, but I'm vaguely happy it exists.

I'm way more high on the greed/diamond valley mash up, that card is exactly the kind of stupid I love.

 

[Salmo2]

The really blunt answer is "more than what the slot is doing now (nothing)".

Besides that basically all the reasons I've mentioned above. Reach against control, value engine for tempo decks, repeatable bodies for equipment, provide a burst of cost-efficient ramp for midrange decks (UW tempo, BW grind). Think it will be a solid 1 drop for me.

The issue with that is that if you're not flipping this, it's worse than everything you're doing now, including that 'geist. And then you have to meet a criteria to flip it, one that's not impossible but certainly not a guarantee, and then for it to be anything other than extra plains it needs to be the better option than casting spells. So in a number of games, this will be the worst 1 drop in your cube, in a number of other games, it's going to be a 1/1 + plains which can be sweet but loses a lot of value at times when you get that plains, and at other times it will be "3W: 1/1", which will range from anywhere from useless/overcosted to good.

Above anything else, in any power level of cube, consistency reigns supreme. The more hoops you have to jump through to get to a level that's palatable, the worse a card's long-term viability is, and when it's even questionable how good the final level is it's hard to justify spending time playing with a card that could lead to some really shitty moments.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The issue with that is that if you're not flipping this, it's worse than everything you're doing now, including that 'geist. And then you have to meet a criteria to flip it, one that's not impossible but certainly not a guarantee, and then for it to be anything other than extra plains it needs to be the better option than casting spells. So in a number of games, this will be the worst 1 drop in your cube, in a number of other games, it's going to be a 1/1 + plains which can be sweet but loses a lot of value at times when you get that plains, and at other times it will be "3W: 1/1", which will range from anywhere from useless/overcosted to good.

Above anything else, in any power level of cube, consistency reigns supreme. The more hoops you have to jump through to get to a level that's palatable, the worse a card's long-term viability is, and when it's even questionable how good the final level is it's hard to justify spending time playing with a card that could lead to some really shitty moments.

Yes, thats a perfect encapsulation of the floor. Geist is also a bad card because of how poor the floor is, regardless of how conceivably powerful the ceiling is, or how interesting it interacts with other cards.

The card should be reasonable on its own merits, but become better with synergy. I've found that to be a consistent truth across the set of cards that end up staying in a format, rather than leaving.

 

[sigh]

The answer to all is 'yeah, maybe', but I can't know for sure without testing. It feels better than random 2/1 number 6, which doesn't support nearly the range of decks this conceivably can. To me it feels like if you aren't flipping it at any point in the game, some other one drop won't be helping you very much more than a 1/1 lifelink, and if a free mox pearl isn't helping you, your hand was already bad or empty, in which case a 1/1 lifelink for 3W is a repeatable bridge to finding gas.

But again, 'yeah maybe'. If it doesn't see play, I'll find something else.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Having to pay mana makes this much worse than Goblin Bombardment, but that is a pretty absurd card, and this sacrifices artifacts as well! I like this!

Oh my, it's expensive, but that's potentially a lot of free mana that can be used whenever, over multiple turns, plus artifact synergy. I quite like this as well!

If they print any more cute enrage cards I'm tempted to dust off this colorshifted beauty!

This was already going into my cube when it was spoiled as a 2/1, turns out it is even better!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Regarding the white enchantment, I will say that there's a world of difference between a 1/1 (or even a 1/2) and a 2/1. Personally I think the card doesn't do enough to close the gap.

We'd probably all find room for this card if it had a 2/1 statline:

 

[sigh]

This seems to be the W-card-of-the-set we all want to run into the ground.

Let's let it get tested, and yeah maybe it sucks. At this point it's just "I don't think the back side is worth it" vs. "I think the back side is worth it" so...

EDIT: And I do think there is the distinct possibility that if it tests well in Format X, it still would end up being bad in Format Y. If Format Y is such that white 1 drops need to have 2 power to be used, maybe the style of Wx decks in that format couldn't capitalize on it anyways? It may be speaking to me because I already see angles in my specific format, from experience, where this could maybe be really solid in a variety of circumstances. Maybe it's that kind of card, as touched on previously. Dunno.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Somewhere, someone is going to go Armageddon into attack and flip this. BAM! You got a land, your opponent doesn't!

 

[Salmo2]

This seems to be the W-card-of-the-set we all want to run into the ground.

Inversely, I see it as the 'One Way Ticket To Magical Christmasland' card of the set.

 

[sigh]

Inversely, I see it as the 'One Way Ticket To Magical Christmasland' card of the set.

What I meant was "card we can't stop arguing about into tedium". Regardless of merit. As we still are doing.

Onder, you menticing Pyrohemia is a really interesting prospect. Enrage is already a decently universal mechanic, this would be a solid anchor. I think it needs a couple more red enrage effects to go off.

Both Ripjaw Raptor and Ranging Raptors, relatedly, are excellent with Wildfire

 

[Salmo2]

Well I mean, if you're breaking down the argument into about the backside, you're missing a large part of it, which is that the front side is pretty awful too. It's not about the backside being worth it or not, really: it's that the front side is *awful*, and if you're not flipping that as early as you can as consistently as possible, then it's an extremely bad card, and out of all the land-flip cards this seems to be the one with the toughest conditions to meet to flip it. Like, Sacred Cat is probably better than this since you can reanimate it, and I don't think that's an exaggeration.

Besides, this is the internet, bro: if you're not arguing about things into tedium, then what are you doing?!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

What I meant was "card we can't stop arguing about into tedium". Regardless of merit. As we still are doing.

Onder, you menticing Pyrohemia is a really interesting prospect. Enrage is already a decently universal mechanic, this would be a solid anchor. I think it needs a couple more red enrage effects to go off.

Both Ripjaw Raptor and Ranging Raptors, relatedly, are excellent with Wildfire

Yeah, I noticed! I also run two Wildfires in my cube so there's definitely some incentive to include those enrage cards

 

[Salmo2]

Yeah, I noticed! I also run two Wildfires in my cube so there's definitely some incentive to include those enrage cards

Just curious: are you running two wildfires because Burning of Xinye is expensive, or is it for another reason? Or is 2 wildfires the usual cube colloquialism of Burning = Wildfire?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Just curious: are you running two wildfires because Burning of Xinye is expensive, or is it for another reason? Or is 2 wildfires the usual cube colloquialism of Burning = Wildfire?

I am running two actual Wildfires because I can. I also run two of Champion of the Parish, Cloudfin Raptor, Minister of Inquiries, Bloodsoaked Champion, Young Pyromancer, Experiment One, Longtusk Cub, Bonesplitter, Hedron Archive, and Hidden Stockpile, as well as two of every fetchland and shockland in my cube's supported color pairs. Cube is a custom draft format, so I never really got why it had to be highlander. Of course you want some variation, but all of these anchor certain archetypes or are simply the most pleasing (to me) design in their niche.

 

[sigh]

My new vote for "most cube playable threaten effect"? I definitely have an underperforming slot that will probably love this.

 

[Salmo2]

Is it better than Frenzied Fugue? Is it better than the other red 4s? It's a cool card, for sure, I just don't know how good waiting to threaten/broadcasting it is.

 

[sigh]

There are a variety of formats that have zero use for this, and that's fine.

My format has a red 4 drop slot that's been a revolving door of failed attempts, so this is a super exciting (newest) alternative to try.

Frenzied fugue is probably slightly better overall for most, but also can't attack for 4.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

People run crap like Savannah Lions, Jackal Pup and Jungle Lion. If it has two power, they'll run it even if it has no utility and a multiple downsides. It bugs the shit out o me that they are willing to run these cards in the same list as Kytheon, Gravecrawler, and Kessig Prowler without any sense of irony. It also illustrates the power gap between power 1 and 2 nicely in that in many formats this is the "correct" choice. Personally I think designing a format around having 24+ functionally interchangeable cards backboning a large strategic niche extremely limiting and to be avoided at all costs. Unfortunately the solution requires calibrating a format so that you can actually play one drops that are actually different and that in turn likely requires weird archetypes and generous amounts of throttling.

That's why I like cards like Legion's Landing, creatively speaking. If you can design your your format where it has a place, it is a very good sign for your format, even if it turns out that the card itself isn't very good/fun/exciting.