General Judging the Judges, Pt. 1

CML

Contributor
whoops, thanks for the heads-up. yet another rule about which i had no idea (though it makes sense)

look creating good content is hard. but creating a good comment section? i'm blown away
 
a) nobody cares about reddit rules, least of all reddit
b) this is way worse than your earlier columns
c) the only tournament magic i play is prereleases so thanks for the picayune account of Judge Drama
d) your Personal Brand is almost complete!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The problem with the "magic legal system" is that it dosen't function like a legal system, because it dosen't matter. No one is going to waste time recording precedent, developing mens rea, or establishing clearly defined burden's of proof. There is no real evidentary standard, or meaninful appeal process. The rules aren't widely disseminated, so the end result is a bench trial governed by subjective standards where the player makes pro se arguments dictated by rules they may or may not know exist. The outcomes are--not surprisingly-- inconsistent.

Of course, thats to be expected--its just a game, begging the well-put question: why does magic want this type of judging at all?

Sadly, this question somehow ends up being wasted in the comment section, as this apparently is really about hurting judge's feelings. Predictably, your mistake was humanizing an element of the magic scene.

:rolleyes:
 

CML

Contributor
a) nobody cares about reddit rules, least of all reddit
b) this is way worse than your earlier columns
c) the only tournament magic i play is prereleases so thanks for the picayune account of Judge Drama
d) your Personal Brand is almost complete!


annnnnnd they say he went away ......... BRANDED!

The problem with the "magic legal system" is that it dosen't function like a legal system, because it dosen't matter. No one is going to waste time recording precedent, developing mens rea, or establishing clearly defined burden's of proof. There is no real evidentary standard, or meaninful appeal process. The rules aren't widely disseminated, so the end result is a bench trial governed by subjective standards where the player makes pro se arguments dictated by rules they may or may not know exist. The outcomes are--not surprisingly-- inconsistent.

Of course, thats to be expected--its just a game, begging the well-put question: why does magic want this type of judging at all?

Sadly, this question somehow ends up being wasted in the comment section, as this apparently is really about hurting judge's feelings. Predictably, your mistake was humanizing an element of the magic scene.

:rolleyes:

better this than yugioh, right? probably needs something, but half-asses it, underimagined kind of reality you'd expect from fantasy readers etc.
 

Laz

Developer
I am probably going to echo the others above when I say that this is far weaker than your previous article(s? I am grouping your SCG Open tournament report in here, but not sure if you have released that yet. I enjoyed it immensely). Dealing with your own disillusionment is a fantastic topic, attacking judges' raison d'être because the system isn't perfect and it burned you a couple of times is not such a satisfying one. While I enjoy your writing voice a lot, I can see how you could come across as needlessly abrasive and unhelpful here.

A lot of your issues seems to come down to this simple split. Rules of the game and integrity of the game. Adjudicating on the former is easy, there is huge set-in-stone comprehensive rules document out there that does it. Adjudicating the latter is where you can end up in all sorts of hot water, as it involves subjective judgements based upon having to deal with people. Given the judge assessment process, most judges are very good at dealing with rules, but there is far less emphasis on how to negotiate dealing with people. Of the extensive Judge Level requirements, it seems that handling other people (who aren't judges, the Judge levels place a frankly ridiculous emphasis on dealings with other judges) doesn't get any emphasis before Level 3 excepting a single dot point at level 2, which reads 'Must show diplomacy with players, judges and TOs', clearly equally important as knowing the deck-check procedure.
Your article seems to spend a great amount of verbal energy entertaining sociological theories as to why exactly the judges you have dealt with struggle to meet your standards on this latter issue, and perhaps too little on emphasising what perhaps should have been your key point; perhaps we put way too much emphasis on the technical rules of the game when we consider the integrity of the game. You seem to have been dancing around this late in your piece, when you are comparing completely disparate actions which carry the same penalty. Forgetting to announce a Dark Confidant trigger when you have 28 life and lethal on board does not affect the integrity of the game. Adding cards to your sealed deck does. Forgetting to reveal a morph when it gets bounced to your hand doesn't affect the integrity of the game, you just go, 'oh, sorry, it was this guy' and take your warning.
I mean, obviously if people are consistently making 'sloppy mistakes' when it happens to benefit them, then perhaps you have something to worry about, but that is what the warning system (and unfortunately it seems, good judgement) is for. I feel that far more game losses are awarded for someone being distracted for a moment and making an easily reversible technical error than for things which legitimately affect the integrity of the game.
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
I must agree with several people here, this did just come across as whiny. Being a fortunate enough crasp to know you, it wasn't hard to put that aside and see what you were really saying... but afterwards I can't really remember what you were talking about, except judges being weird and making bad rulings.
 
I would agree that among the judge population there's probably a slightly higher proportion of weirdos than the average Magic-playing population, but most of the judges I've known in my area have been fine and not weird. A friend of mine is an L2 and he always handles things as smoothly and fairly as he possibly can. He's been such a positive force that I would never expect anyone to say anything bad about him.

I still don't fully understand whether or not that bogus ruling against you was justified by the floor rules. If so, that could be an interesting discussion to focus on. I don't think you'll get very far with targeting judges specifically.
 
From what I understand he plussed Ajani Mentor of Heroes, took the only card he could and put it face down in his hand, so without revealing it. That counted as drawing extra cards therefore a game loss.
 
Yeah, he was technically breaking the rule, but it's a stupid rule anyway. He totally deserved the penalty he got as the rules are written, but it just seems so stupid that they can't fix an issue like this when you have cameras available. Yeah, no one would have caught that if they weren't a feature match, but why does that matter at all? They're already under different circumstances by virtue of being on camera in a feature match. It's just dumb that they would refuse to make use of technology when it's readily available.

It was a complete shitstorm on camera. Makes the game look so bad when they can't resolve something simple like that quickly. Should have just given him his penalty and moved on, not drag it out for so long for everyone to see. SCG coverage makes Wizards look like amateurs.
 

CML

Contributor
that's the problem with stupid rules -- you've kind of got to enforce them, but not always, maybe, a little, etc. in general there's preferential treatment for more distinguished players so the Chapin ruling seemed bad for the opposite reason.

thanks for the feedback. i will try to be less whiny next time! i wrote this article a year ago roughly and it was such a mess then that i was happy to even get it to the point other people would go through the entire thing without wanting to shiv me. at least, some other people.
 
In the seattle match where stoned whip CML was up against mono red devotion, the red guy cast a spell that was illegal due to not enough red mana sources. No DQ.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, he was technically breaking the rule, but it's a stupid rule anyway. He totally deserved the penalty he got as the rules are written, but it just seems so stupid that they can't fix an issue like this when you have cameras available. Yeah, no one would have caught that if they weren't a feature match, but why does that matter at all? They're already under different circumstances by virtue of being on camera in a feature match. It's just dumb that they would refuse to make use of technology when it's readily available.

It was a complete shitstorm on camera. Makes the game look so bad when they can't resolve something simple like that quickly. Should have just given him his penalty and moved on, not drag it out for so long for everyone to see. SCG coverage makes Wizards look like amateurs.


In law, there are all sorts of different rules of interpretation for things like statutes or contracts. None of it is actually binding (there is no law requiring their application) but it might become customary for a particular judge or jurisdiction to apply them as a heuristic. There are a lot of practical considerations that go into this (limited judicial resources, public opinion etc.). In some instances, there might be a balancing test of factors that apply, established through case law. This allows judges to take a more personal approach to each outcome, rather than being priced into ruining somone's life due to the dictates of an ivory tower.

The thing with the Chapin situation, was that it seemed strange to apply the rule strictly in his case. The mistake was incidental, its impact wasn't material, there didn't appear to be any intent to cheat, the conditions he was under were severe, and the decision to give him a game loss ruined an otherwise interesting game. Because it was on camera, the chief judge had the opportunity to publicly clarify his ruling, in case he was worried of setting a bad precedent.

I also got the feeling that the chief judge was simply ruling in solidarity with the judge that had made the initial call; though thats speculative on my part.

Here is the video btw. Super interesting twist, as some people in the video comments noticed (and I just noticed), he actually made an illegal move prior to the action that got him the game loss, and it was material to the games outcome. 13:43-14:27 he plays a land, casts read the bones, than plays another land, which allows him to play elspeth. None of the commentators or judges noticed.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I just watched it. Not only did he play two lands, but the land he played was a windswept heath, which he tapped for mana instead of searching for a land that would have brought him to 1 life. I didn't keep watching the video so that may not have been a material error, but it certainly was another error.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
There was almost certainly an Urborg in play.

I love the card but whenever it's play the cheating accusations come thick and fast because people are more interested in ~scandal~ than paying attention to the match.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
There was almost certainly an Urborg in play.

I love the card but whenever it's play the cheating accusations come thick and fast because people are more interested in ~scandal~ than paying attention to the match.
Shows how much I follow standard, I didn't even know that card was reprinted.
 

CML

Contributor
i didn't mind my opponent just getting a warning though i might have felt differently had it changed things or had i lost the match. still by default doing nothing is a much better policy in these situations and i don't trust judges to be able to tell the difference ever
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I thought the whole curfuffle is that WotC has a staunch stance on not using camera footage for rulings to prevent there being a difference between feature matches and regular matches.
(Since we can see the tasigur is his only option, even though he did not show his opponent, which apparently turns the ruling around?)
 
Top