Konge's Cube

[Konge]

http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/4073

So, I've been hesitant to post this since it seems to embody much of what people despise on here. However, now I'm blanking on a black cut for a Night's Whisper, so here I am!

Jack-in-the-mox will probably be replaced by a Chrome Mox since that was available in gold borders. Sol Ring might get the axe soonish. Four wastelands will probably get in once the gold-bordered cards arrive, since my experiment with Dust Bowl failed miserably; it has literally never been used.

Hornet Queen and Wurmcoil have literally just been added, so they'll stick around, at least for a while.

So, what would you cut from the black section for a Night's Whisper? I've been thinking about Consuming Vapors, but it's just really nice as a support card for Xb control. Suggestions?

Of course, general suggestions are welcome.

Be gentle.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Jack-in-the-Mox is a sweet inclusion
EDIT: Oh, you talked about it in the OP. Whoops.

 

[Konge]

It's definitely been fun, but it's been in there almost since the beginning, and it's beginning to get a liiitle tiresome. However, my artifact section is a bit shabby for my taste, and it's the section with the largest list of cards I'm looking/willing to replace, so I might just give something like Icy the axe instead and run it with Chrome for a while and see how it goes.

 

[Jonas]

I would probably cut Duress, seems a little lonely with just hymn for company.

 

[Konge]

To be fair, I would love for it to have either Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek to accompany it, but I find that they are a bit too pricy for their effect. I have actually considered doubling up on duress before I came here (though it was definitely motivated by the very first article I read here). Now that you mention it, duress might actually be a bit lackluster, although it's a bit counterintuitive for me.

 

[Eric Chan]

Do you mean pricey, money-wise? (...holy crap I just checked, when did Inquisition hit $7)

It looks like you're trying to support the Pox archetype, but I'm not a huge fan of the card itself. It almost requires you to be in mono-black before it's viable. Something like Geralf's Messenger, on the other hand, works with Gravecrawler, in B/x aggro, or in the Pox deck, and is still strong when it isn't cast on curve. My vote would be to bench Pox.

 

[Konge]

I tend to agree. Pox might be the eponymous poster-child, but it rarely makes the cut. Smallpox and stax effects are much better. One thing I didn't bother to ask was whether Night's Whisper would actually be worth cutting something for. Do anyone have any experiences with it?

 

[Jonas]

I've never tried it, but it is neatly costed, and is very black. I'm going to try out greed in my cube for the card draw, and see if it is too slow, or if it can actually be useful.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I ran Night's Whisper for a long time, and it was fine, albeit unexciting. It was also pretty unnecessary, design wise. I never felt like it was doing anything for my environment.

 

[James Stevenson]

I like Night's Whisper. I run it and Read the Bones for control. I really like their effects at those costs, and the life loss is relevant. I feel like I run Night's Whisper because somehow blue lacks an efficient draw spell at 2 mana. There's plenty of blue draw spells at 1 or 3 or 4 or more, but this feels ok on 2. I thought Read the Bones was amazing in THS so I'm trying it out.

 

[Eric Chan]

I tend to agree with Jason. On power level alone, Night's Whisper makes the cut, but you have to ask if it's actively contributing to one or more of your archetypes more than a replacement card would. One place I do like it in my cube is in the 'combo' decks - i.e. Bad, Slow Reanimator - where digging for a specific combo piece at a cheap rate is valuable. But for pure control or aggro decks, there are usually other cards I'd rather run over straight card draw.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Night's Whispers is efficient, no more, no less. I'm not sure if scrying 2 is worth 1 mana for Read the Bones, though if you're in Eric's take in using it to dig for combo pieces, it does dig deep and fast.

If you want to add one of this kind of effect, I would cut one of the "Destroy target dude" cards. You've got 7/48 cards that do this PLUS Dismember that almost does this and skinrender, 5 cards that edict, Toxic Deluge and even more in the gold section. I think you can like without one of them. Pox is another decent choice, its a great card and your cube looks like it can utilize it decently, but its always tough to get a deck that wants it together.

Jonas: I really wouldn't run greed. It is a dead card against any flavor of aggro and while it can bury your opponent if you have some mana and 10 or so life you don't need, how often does that actually happen? Erebos is even slower then greed but the random hosing and threat of being a huge dude makes up for it.

 

[Konge]

Night's Whispers is efficient, no more, no less. I'm not sure if scrying 2 is worth 1 mana for Read the Bones, though if you're in Eric's take in using it to dig for combo pieces, it does dig deep and fast.

If you want to add one of this kind of effect, I would cut one of the "Destroy target dude" cards. You've got 7/48 cards that do this PLUS Dismember that almost does this and skinrender, 5 cards that edict, Toxic Deluge and even more in the gold section. I think you can like without one of them. Pox is another decent choice, its a great card and your cube looks like it can utilize it decently, but its always tough to get a deck that wants it together.

Jonas: I really wouldn't run greed. It is a dead card against any flavor of aggro and while it can bury your opponent if you have some mana and 10 or so life you don't need, how often does that actually happen? Erebos is even slower then greed but the random hosing and threat of being a huge dude makes up for it.

That is a very good point. Off the top of my head, I'm looking at Doom Blade or Diabolic Edict. Since True-Name Nemesis was added so recently*, I'm inclined to keep the Edict for now. Coincidentally, this also brings the discussion, sort of, back to Consuming Vapors. What are people's experiences with that?

*Again, another card I acquired just before coming here; it's staying in at least for a while, it's only been in one deck so far.

 

[Jason Waddell]

That is a very good point. Off the top of my head, I'm looking at Doom Blade or Diabolic Edict. Since True-Name Nemesis was added so recently*, I'm inclined to keep the Edict for now. Coincidentally, this also brings the discussion, sort of, back to Consuming Vapors. What are people's experiences with that?

*Again, another card I acquired just before coming here; it's staying in at least for a while, it's only been in one deck so far.

Hah, I love the disclaimer. Run whatever you want*.

*but if you want to open up a discussion I'm sure some people have strong opinions on the topic. Maybe title it "making non-blue unable to do things?"

 

[Konge]

Hehe, I mainly added the disclaimer because I definitely understand the points, and it's certainly on the watchlist for degeneracy. Mostly, it's just a sunk cost fallacy - I just spent money on the card, after all

Funnily, the most complaints out of the last session was made by the player who had TNN and even made a TNN + Phantasmal Image turn 4, against Symbol Status. Although, that card is nuts after I added all different basics.

 

[Eric Chan]

Consuming Vapors is really sweet here, and helps the control decks stabilize like nothing else. Before Toxic Deluge, Damnation was black's only good mass removal (yep, I said it), but Vapors does a decent impression, while giving you a life buffer to work with. It is obviously lackluster against the likes of Cloudgoat Ranger et al., but in all other situations it's fine.

 

[Konge]

True dat. I'm really rooting for a Damnation reprint in Born of the Gods or Journey into Nyx, because atm it's just a tad too expensive. Toxic Deluge has been fantastic, and one more sweeper would really help.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Mostly, it's just a sunk cost fallacy

This is probably the biggest and least discussed fallacy in all of cube design. I really didn't start designing well until I made cost cease to be a contributing factor.

 

[Changling Bob]

This is probably the biggest and least discussed fallacy in all of cube design. I really didn't start designing well until I made cost cease to be a contributing factor.

I've done a lot of cube design before starting to pick up the more expensive cards, which is mostly why I don't have my own cube thread yet. No point splashing out on $fatty if you then realise that it's GRBS and unfun, when you can sit and do some design work first and figure it out.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I've done a lot of cube design before starting to pick up the more expensive cards, which is mostly why I don't have my own cube thread yet. No point splashing out on $fatty if you then realise that it's GRBS and unfun, when you can sit and do some design work first and figure it out.

Yeah, it's a little taboo since I'm kind of in the business of promoting card sales, but I am a pretty solid advocate of the Xerox style "try before you buy" method of testing (at least, for cards > $5). I also have a number of fairly lifelike cards that are by no means tournament legal.

Truth is that experimentation is super tedious. Even sorting through my cubes to physically find the cards I need to swap out for the lifegain update is annoying. Then I gotta shell out for card orders, and at the end of the day it might just be a giant pile.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I also think that the "design work" is biased when you don't have both cards. I know when getting a different card involved more effort, I was far more likely to justify the card I already had. Versus, say, if you just have to get out a binder and make a swap, then you're going to be open to that more often.

Not that there's a lot that can be done about it. I've been the guy who only had $20 a month to spend on Magic and making compromises. But I certainly wouldn't have made some of my favorite design decisions (hello double fetches) under those constraints.

 

[Changling Bob]

Oh yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm mostly happy, and need to proxy some stuff up and start playing to figure out if it's actually fun. The problem there is lack of local playgroup that I enjoy playing with, so I'd probably mostly end up two man cubing with a handful of friends who visit every so often.

 

[Konge]

We proxy all lands, simply by sharpied guildgates. It's a surprisingly elegant solution since it conveys immediately which colors it is. I've been hesitant about "true" proxies, since I don't really have any means of doing it except for stick a piece of paper in a sleeve over an ordinary card. Our group is mostly comprised of novices, so simply writing the name of a card isn't going to fly. If anyone have any good ideas about proxy methods I'd love to hear about it. However, I don't think there's a whole lot which I'm not testing atm due to cost constraints. The high profiles in that department were Wasteland and Rishadan Port, which I snap-ordered as soon as I discovered they were available in gold borders.

Oh, and TNN wasn't so bad for me cost-wise, I got the deck at retail (or as close as you can get to retail in Denmark) and made a Nekusar EDH deck with it. Also, I didn't have Baleful Strix in the cube before that, and added the black curse. And of course, you can never get enough Sol Rings or Command Towers.

 

[Konge]

Ok, finally got the shipment I ordered late November. I'm looking to add (potential cuts in parentheses):

Night's Whisper (Vampire Hexmage)
Leonin Arbiter (Mana Tithe? Spear of Heliod?)
Mirror Entity (Kor Sanctifiers)
Survival of the Fittest (River Boa? Wild Mongrel? One of the curve toppers?)
4x Wasteland (Dust Bowl, Strip Mine, Razormane Masticore, Icy Manipulator)
Chrome Mox (Simic Signet/Jack-in-the-mox/Sword of Body and Mind)
Venser, Shaper Savant (Omenspeaker/Sea Gate Oracle/Compulsive Research)
Thundermaw Hellkite (Lightning Strike? Very much in doubt about a red cut. Actually considering Wheel of Fortune, but that makes me feel a little dirty)

I'm very happy with the four wastelands swap since it accomplishes two goals. Makes mana denial more consistent and fair on the one hand, and cuts down my artifact section, which I've been looking to do, on the other.

I'd be happy to hear your inputs about both includes and cuts.

 

[Eric Chan]

I like all of your adds, except I'm not sure what you're trying to do with Leonin Arbiter. Is he there to hose fetchlands? Tutors? Either way, I found he was a pretty ineffectual hatebear back in the Standard days, even when you could pack four of them. Some people on this forum have tried Aven Mindcensor for a similar effect, though I don't know of its success rate.

Kor Sanctifiers might be a necessary evil, as I think you want a few Disenchant effects in white, outside of universal catch-alls like Oblivion Ring. Lightning Strike is a fine cut, because you're already running two functionally identical cards. With so few cheap creatures in blue, I think you might be better off cutting another blue four drop for Venser, and Dungeon Geists seems like the weakest link. That, or Crystal Shard, though it may work better in your environment if you push midrange.