Article Learning From Pauper – Rethinking Archetype Design

[Lucre]

man i had never even heard of that card!

 

[Chris Taylor]

it always seemed like your pants decks were very +1/+1 counters based, double strike based or had something to do with a flashback or rebound massive pump.

This is mostly because of how I layered things: +1/+1 counters were a deck themselves, but some of the effects that granted counters were good weather you cared about Abzan Falconer or Fencing Ace.
Prowess Decks loved flashback and rebound spells, so distortion strike and reckless charge were home runs for the people playing seeker of the way as well as prophetic flamespeaker

I did endevor to keep the pump spells small though. To avoid the feel of Kiln Fiend style Berserk decks, all pump spells were capped at +3/+3 except for Ghor-Clan Rampager and Vines of Vastwood, mostly because the latter actually played really well and the former was just so damn sweet. Everything else was either Rancor or Grafted Wargear, no bigger

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

To avoid the feel of Kiln Fiend style Berserk decks, all pump spells were capped at +3/+3 except for Ghor-Clan Rampager and Vines of Vastwood, mostly because the latter actually played really well and the former was just so damn sweet.

Which begs the question, what do you guys think about supporting combo decks in cube? Aggro-combo decks have to be some of the most mild varients, due to how disruptable they are. Does it have to not condense the game at all? Sort of a slow build like Innistrad's spider spawning archetype?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Not sure if I'd call spider spawning "aggro", unless you were less on the spawning plan and more on the makeshift mauler plan. Combo sure

Reducing the number of relevant turns on the game makes the combo deck less fun in my eyes, since the window for relevant plays is smaller. Crawler combo decks can basically always be interacted with by killing the zombie or graveyard hate. Kiln Fiendy decks essentially promise their opponent "If I ever untap with this thing, you're probably dead"

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Spider spawning isn't aggro-combo, its combo-control, and a very slow combo-control deck at that.

Most combo decks condense the game, whether its storm killing with tendrils, milling someone out with cloud of faeries flicker, or crashing over with a pumped kiln fiend/double striker. The difference between the aggro-combo decks and the rest, is that aggro-combo is easily disrupted by widely available removal, while the other decks usually require some combination of counterspells or discard.

So, the only type of combo deck we would generally be interested in would be a very slow combo-control deck?

aka is this another nail in the "good ol' days/magic is being dumbed down there are no combo decks" coffin?

Edit: sorry, mistype

 

[vennythekid]

I like the combo decks that crop up in my Cube. The only "combos" in my cube at the moment are:

Kiki-Jiki + Restoration Angel/Zealous Conscripts
Anafenza + Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcap + Sac. Outlet

These two decks typically manifest themselves in the Pod shell, as it provides tutoring for the combo. Since all the combo pieces are in high demand anyways, combo Pod doesn't show up that often, so it's fun when someone puts them together.

I wonder if there's a viable spell-based combo deck in Cube that isn't super poisiony. I wish Splinter Twin didn't suck as a card.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm with Chris on this. The Johnny side in me loves the idea of combo. And sometimes I get this idea in my head that I can make a non-poisonous fun variant in cube and it will work. But reality is guys don't enjoy those games very much because they often are not interactive.

You never want to feel like you couldn't do anything in a game of Magic (IMO anyway). It's why I dislike super fast aggro. Same problem there in my eyes (and side boarding in "solutions" to those match ups is a poor band-aid in my mind - I will never tire of beating that horse to death). If the game is over before I can play any spells, where is the depth to the game? I might as well be playing Uno.

Now aggro-control (with a splash of combo)? I can get behind that. Decks that build slow and then ram out a ton of damage are fine as long as your opponent has opportunities to disrupt you. I like double strike pants style decks in WW in particular because it feels appropriate for the color and works well naturally with anthem effects. It does IMO necessitate better removal that some of you are running though. I think you sort of need doom blades if you are going to play stuff like silverblade paladin. Just my opinion though.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

aka is this another nail in the "good ol' days/magic is being dumbed down there are no combo decks" coffin?

I don't know who started that rumor, but to the best of my recollection "combo decks" were heavily despised in the old days, with an undertone that their very existence was a design mistake which should be fixed. People played the good ones, obviously, because the goal of a tournament is to win the tournament, but the sentiment was that they made playing the game less fulfilling.

Dumbed down, if you will.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Well also most of the "old scool" combos were fast and horrible too
Illusions Donate has outs, but those outs were usually killing them faster, counterspells, or a well timed disenchant
Pros Bloom playes like a modern storm deck essentially card for card, except their kill condition was a pile of mana and drain life rather than the entirely straightforward Tendrils of Agony

I don't know who started that rumor, but to the best of my recollection "combo decks" were heavily despised in the old days, with an undertone that their very existence was a design mistake which should be fixed. People played the good ones, obviously, because the goal of a tournament is to win the tournament, but the sentiment was that they made playing the game less fulfilling.

Dumbed down, if you will.

Shocking how people who have moved from the deck where they barely have an opponent to a deck where they might have to interact with someone feels slighted. I wonder how it feels to have to actually play all your matches, rather than only need to think against people with islands

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The argument was first brought to me in this article, with special emphasis being placed on that first comment.

Its interesting, because pauper is actual ground zero for NWO design impact, and the format's big issues have historically been unfun games due to the way old school design condenses games.

As discussed in earlier articles, Temporal Fissure creates a game state where only one person is actively playing a game of Magic. Having Storm makes the card incredibly difficult to interact with on a meaningful axis. Temporal Fissure decks establish a hard line in the format, making it so a deck would either have to be able to win before Temporal Fissure wipes away their board or risk playing the entire late game stalled on one or two lands while Mulldrifter slowly eats a life total. Since the February 2013 Pauper bans, Temporal Fissure and Cloudpost combined have defined the Pauper metagame....

...The case against Temporal Fissure is not one of numbers but rather one of that horribly arbitrary metric: fun. Personally, I detest playing against Temporal Fissure. I do not like the feeling of having to vomit my hand onto the board to have a reasonable chance of winning. In these games, my decisions have already been made for me—I just have to win before they do. And if I don't, then I never have a chance to make another decision. I know that the dreaded fun is not a good measure of what should and should not be banned, especially when attendance for the format is up, but at its roots Magic is a game and current Temporal Fissure is a deck that prevents one person from playing said game.

With combo decks, the line seems to be entirely based on disruption and how much the combo condenses the games.