General Lets talk Cycling
- Thread starter Laz
- Start date
Skulk is not a bad mechanic, but it certainly does not have the design space to be an evergreen mechanic. And, the design is appealing in theory; however, in application the skulk fails. The reason it fails is that it is only effective on smaller creatures, who are pretty ineffective. My dumb 4/4 is going to kill you a lot faster than your 1/3 Skulk creature will kill me.
I will not deny that skulk does get interesting with the addition of saboteur abilities or the ability to pump the creature in response to declaring blockers (e.g. fire breathing). However, you only have so many options to pull from before they become repetitive.
On a different tangent: I find it difficult to believe that there is a format that desires a high density of creatures as they would all be able to block one another. Making the mechanic mute.
I will not deny that skulk does get interesting with the addition of saboteur abilities or the ability to pump the creature in response to declaring blockers (e.g. fire breathing). However, you only have so many options to pull from before they become repetitive.
On a different tangent: I find it difficult to believe that there is a format that desires a high density of creatures as they would all be able to block one another. Making the mechanic mute.
Legitimately forgot this was the Cycling thread.
It is?
In that case I should probably mention that Drake Haven hasn't fully worked out for me. Not so much that the card is bad as it does not impact the game immediately enough for a blue three drop in my cube. Sphinx's Tutelage and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver out classed the card wayward of blue win condition/pay off cards. (I generally group them under the blue durdle deck banner that messes with the opponent while winning via drawing - often in the form of looting.) But, I do like how Drak Haven plays out when not under pressure of getting killed in one to two turns as it creates an interesting focus for a deck (The 2/2 bodies didn't function as much more than chump blockers). I should note that Curator of Mysteries largely does the same thing gameplay wise while providing a solid body to be used defensively and offensively depending on the board state - why it is staying in for the foreseeable future. The fact that Curator of Mysteries also cycles is cute/helpful too.
In my opinion, given the data I have, Drake Haven belongs in a format populated by smaller creatures so the 2/2 bodies become more relevant or a format more focused on non-creature cards. This probably means lower powered, but there is the possibility of being otherwise. I have certainly used it as part of a 3-0 Amonkhet draft deck that simply walled my opponents while chipping away at their life total. And, I have found Amonkhet to be surprisingly aggressive. (A proper GW exert deck will win turns 5-7 if not stopped properly.)
As far as actual cyclers from Amonkhet that I have liked and tested it has only been Curator of Mysteries, the bicycle lands, and Hieroglyphic Illumination. I have yet to be able to see Archfiend of Ifnir in play yet, so my verdict is still out on that one. If anyone one would to give me their opinions I would love to read them.
In that case I should probably mention that Drake Haven hasn't fully worked out for me. Not so much that the card is bad as it does not impact the game immediately enough for a blue three drop in my cube. Sphinx's Tutelage and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver out classed the card wayward of blue win condition/pay off cards. (I generally group them under the blue durdle deck banner that messes with the opponent while winning via drawing - often in the form of looting.) But, I do like how Drak Haven plays out when not under pressure of getting killed in one to two turns as it creates an interesting focus for a deck (The 2/2 bodies didn't function as much more than chump blockers). I should note that Curator of Mysteries largely does the same thing gameplay wise while providing a solid body to be used defensively and offensively depending on the board state - why it is staying in for the foreseeable future. The fact that Curator of Mysteries also cycles is cute/helpful too.
In my opinion, given the data I have, Drake Haven belongs in a format populated by smaller creatures so the 2/2 bodies become more relevant or a format more focused on non-creature cards. This probably means lower powered, but there is the possibility of being otherwise. I have certainly used it as part of a 3-0 Amonkhet draft deck that simply walled my opponents while chipping away at their life total. And, I have found Amonkhet to be surprisingly aggressive. (A proper GW exert deck will win turns 5-7 if not stopped properly.)
As far as actual cyclers from Amonkhet that I have liked and tested it has only been Curator of Mysteries, the bicycle lands, and Hieroglyphic Illumination. I have yet to be able to see Archfiend of Ifnir in play yet, so my verdict is still out on that one. If anyone one would to give me their opinions I would love to read them.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Random brainstorming:
I've liked using these to give black a role in spell-heavy URx decks by recurring creatures that recur spells - Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Snapcaster, Jace VP, Torrential Gearhulk, Mnemonic Wall. With cycling they turn into souped-up cantrips very easily.
Cycling is a perfect source of instant-speed draw triggers which points towards the more palatable Miracles and the underrated Chasm Skulker
If you can convert those draw triggers into some other effect your deck has access to it with a startling level of consistency
When we've discussed this card here it's often been written off as too hard to set up, but if your setup cards replace and bin themselves for cheap then it looks a lot better
One day someone else will try this card and fall in love with how it encourages all of your worst impulses
If you want some dedicated enablers...
Chucking away lots of cards mean your graveyard is full quickly; the threshold cards aren't powerful by modern standards but they demand less than delirium
???
Red's Faithless Looting/Tormenting Voice/Cathartic Reunion base plays well with all of this stuff (see also: Daretti, red reanimation, Firestorm)
Sample decklist (obviously ideal/pushed but take as a proof of concept):
The cycling creatures and lands in particular have enough applications that a format built around them as lynchpins (cf. bouncelands or fetchlands in other Cubes here) is definitely worth exploring IMO
I've liked using these to give black a role in spell-heavy URx decks by recurring creatures that recur spells - Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Snapcaster, Jace VP, Torrential Gearhulk, Mnemonic Wall. With cycling they turn into souped-up cantrips very easily.
Cycling is a perfect source of instant-speed draw triggers which points towards the more palatable Miracles and the underrated Chasm Skulker
If you can convert those draw triggers into some other effect your deck has access to it with a startling level of consistency
When we've discussed this card here it's often been written off as too hard to set up, but if your setup cards replace and bin themselves for cheap then it looks a lot better
One day someone else will try this card and fall in love with how it encourages all of your worst impulses
If you want some dedicated enablers...
Chucking away lots of cards mean your graveyard is full quickly; the threshold cards aren't powerful by modern standards but they demand less than delirium
???
Red's Faithless Looting/Tormenting Voice/Cathartic Reunion base plays well with all of this stuff (see also: Daretti, red reanimation, Firestorm)
Sample decklist (obviously ideal/pushed but take as a proof of concept):
| | | |
| |||
| |||
| |||
The cycling creatures and lands in particular have enough applications that a format built around them as lynchpins (cf. bouncelands or fetchlands in other Cubes here) is definitely worth exploring IMO
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm extremely happy with the new split cards, especially
These cards are both very playable and really good support for delirium. Between the new instant sorceries and artifact creatures, as well as the influx of cubable cyclers, it's easier than ever to get four card types into the yard!
I'm extremely happy with the new split cards, especially
Prepare to Start.
Fight to Finish.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Good Philosophy
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'ld say they're comparable to scrylands in power level, slightly better if you run fetches. Would you run scrylands in the ULD? Then you could run these in the ULD as well. Do you think scrylands are too good for the ULD , then don't run the bicycle lands in the ULD.
Interesting questions. Scrylands have always been off the table for me because of how they disproportionately favor control decks so I wouldn't place them in either the cube or a ULD. I may be overreacting to the tapped clause, especially since the ability to cycle an unneeded land is quite the boon for aggro. I'm currently running double fetch lands, double shocklands, and a full cycle of man lands so the fetch able quality is quite nice too. I've decided I'm going to swap them in over the weaker man lands and in place of my second shock land for guilds with powerful ones.
I'll again mention an idea I've been experimenting with that I think people should explore. It's worked well so far and it's highly customizable.
Instead of running the full cycle of lands, consider just running only 4 of them and base your choice off color. If you run 5 "mini-cycles" like this, you get 20 dual lands and cover all combinations twice. But instead of only being able to run 2 cycles, you now get to play with 5 different types. You now get a little bit of everything.
My current setup:
White - Scrylands
Red - Fastlands
Black- Painlands
Green - Creaturelands
Blue - Bouncelands
This gives me tapped vs untapped combinations which lean one way or the other (or one of each) based on color combinations. For example, WU is scry and bounce (so two tapped lands). It's a control combination. RB is pain/fast, which are both untapped (so more aggressive) GR is a mix (fast/creature), etc. In addition to these 20 partial cycles, I also run single fetch and double shock (technically bicycle ally and shock enemy until we get the enemy bicycles).
And again, the combination can be anything. Creature lands too good for a mini-cycle? Remove them and replace with check lands. Or filters and make those white and move scry to green. Or... pretty much whatever you want.
So does that make these unicycle lands?
What does that make Blasted Landscape then?
I definitely agree that sticking rigidly to cycles comes at the cost of using more interesting, and sometimes more useful lands. I'm not sure if I'm crazy about the idea of reinforcing colour identity via lands however. Bounce lands and Scrylands are indeed fantastic for the Azorius control player, but what about the Azorius/Jeskai tempo build? Likewise a RBX control build (most likely grixis control which is pretty popular around here) is inherently less suited to control because its land base is tailored for an aggro build.
The beauty of the albeit uninspired double shock/double fetch base is it grants the flexibility to my drafters to break from a colours archetypal identity and I love that. I'm tempted to bring back the Painlands and Talismans because I felt like they embodied what I wanted from fixing sources, namely fast fixing at the cost of life. Colorless support was gravy too. That said next time I draft I'll try to be conscious of how many times I would have preferred something like a scryland, I'm such a sucker for cycle symmetry.
I'm experimenting with signets/talismans actually for this reason. Boros is traditionally a very aggressive pairing, but Firemane Angel is a cool card it it fits the creature suite I've got going on in my combo list. That pairing has the temple and fastland (so already a mix), but I'm throwing in Boros Signet to give the control angle another tool and signal in the draft. Talisman of Indulgence is for RB control/midrange which has more aggressive land options in my list.
Ultimately, no matter how you do the land setup you are making some sort of compromise somewhere. I did double shock/fetch for awhile and it's control unfriendly because of all the self damage. I found I was forced to ETB tapped a lot just to avoid shocking myself over and over, and if I'm going to ETB tapped I want something for that (like scry or a late game creature, etc). I think control really needs lands other than shock lands. Those are well designed and all but everyone starting the game at effectively 15 life is a big disadvantage for slower decks.
On a related note, I think a lot of cube managers have been running one cycle that is fully customizable. Horizon Canopy for example is a really strong land most want to run but it's not part of a cycle, so you already have to break symmetry to get that in your list if you want it. There's also fringe things like Grove of the Burnwillows if you want to toss in Punishing Fire/Kavu Predator. Fully customizable is a nice option to consider as well but I think it's harder to dial in without just being completely arbitrary.
FWIW I played with Firemane Angel in both an unpowered and lower powered cube, and it was pretty awful. The 1 life and the insanely overpriced reanimation effect were pretty bad gravy and worse reasons to play the card, and a 6 mana 4/3 flier with first strike is a pretty bad creature in most cube environments. I don't want to poo-poo on your parade but I have literally never seen it be good, at least 'good' in the way I expect my 6 mana investments to be.
I think a lot of people are resistant to limiting creature lands to just a small subset because they are powerful. But I'd argue that running 10 of them in most cubes warps the environment around them. Much like running 5 swords does. So I'm a big fan of cutting them down a bit. I've always been a fan of the creature land design, being late game reach that is resilient and a sweet mana sink plus fixing all in one. These cards are amazing. But IMO there is such thing as too much of a good thing.
I think it's better in multiples obviously, but the idea is yard it right away (R has a lot of discard effects now, and obviously U/B if you go three color). Then you play the slow game while gaining life for free. 7 turns into the game and you've gained 6 life for free? That's certainly worth a card right even if you don't recur it?
Speaking of which, I thought 10 mana was ridiculous too, but in an artifact RWU build, this can actually happen. And even if it doesn't, there are ways to return it to hand and cast or reanimate (Miraculous Recovery is good and on-color, if you go RWB it opens up a lot more choices obviously). This card is not for most modern cubes I don't think. You need the right meta for it.
Having a free spell just biding it's time until you have an opportunity to abuse it is very strong. I could see swapping out like so in my format
lumbering falls -> simic growth chamber
Cinder glade -> sheltered thicket
To help support the RUG decks, and then
needle spires -> inspiring vantage
To actually help boros and jeskai in a more meaningful way.
I'm totally on board with doing this sort of things with lands, and the places I've done it already are working out great. It's a free and easy way to help improve the health of your format's decks without using any nonland slot space to do so. Love it.
And of course, I patiently wait for the numerous allied-only cycles to finish up, because that will open up a ton more options, namely with battle and bicycle lands. GB bicycle land, for instance, would be the bees knees.
I resisted this for a long time just because I like symmetry. But we don't run cycles with non-land cards, so I'm not convinced we should be doing it with land cards either.
It's important to point out too that the difference between a fast land and pain land versus bounce land. It's not so significant that you break a color pairing by including or not-including. Creature lands might be so high in power level for some cubes, this isn't necessarily true; but for the tier B dual lands I find it hard to believe this is a real argument against mixing and matching.
It's important to point out too that the difference between a fast land and pain land versus bounce land. It's not so significant that you break a color pairing by including or not-including. Creature lands might be so high in power level for some cubes, this isn't necessarily true; but for the tier B dual lands I find it hard to believe this is a real argument against mixing and matching.