General Let's talk fatties

All cubes need high CC creatures, but they are hard to get right. Often unplayable, ocasionally game-winning, finding big creatures that are interesting and fun is proving a challenge.

Things also get harder when you include Sneak Attack, Reanimator or Oath in your cube. These cards are very fun, but result in bad games if the targets are overly strong. There's also the need to pair well in several archetypes, like Wildfire and yet still be castable for the average deck.

BIG CREATURES I'M HAPPY WITH:



This is a bit too strong. It's fine in GR decks but if you can cheat this into play with Oath of Druids then it's going to be a pain. Oath is kind of weak, though, so I'm fine with it.



Crater Hellion is a very well-designed card. It's a powerful boardwipe, but it foces you to spend two turns of mana on it if you want to keep the haste 6/6 body. It's also a red control card that supports other colours very well! You can play it in a UR counterburn deck or in a control Reanimator shell. I'm very fond of it.

It's also an iconic card and a friend of mine used to play 4 copies of it in his Extended Sneak Attack build.



This is a pushed card, but I've found it fairly "fair" in practice. Most of the time it brings back a bussiness spell and gets the control player a bit ahead, but it's less backbreaking than a board wipe. It also fits in all sorts of decks and provides consistency. It's also a Tinker/Welder target, which I appreciate.

Sometimes you do get to recur a Fact or Fiction and more or less in, but heh. Some broken stuff is ok from time to time.




This was one of the classic reanimation targets back in the day, but it's still a powerful card.

What I enjoy about Avatar of Woe is that it's not obvious what's the best play with her. Sometimes it's best to use her ability and block, sometimes it's best to attack. She takes a while to get going and is best paired with other creatures. Her discount ability has potential though I haven't found it overly relevant.



A classic. I dislike the fact that it's the only card with Morph in my cube but it fills everything I want in a white fattie: It's an angel, it's a classic, it survives Wildfire, it works in both midrange and control decks and it's not oppresive in its lifelink.





Other than the inelegant anti-reanimator clause, I think Darksteel Colossus is one of the best magic designs. It's huge, it's indestructible but it doesn't win the game on its own without taking at least three turns. You can actually cast it if you have some mana acceleration and I have some appreciation of him as a long-time Tooth and Nail player.

I hate that they made a strictly better version of him that is awfully designed.



I think this is the most versatile, best dragon. It's always useful, it survives wildfire, it can kill some annoying creatures. I know people are going to like this card quite a bit. It's also a good reanimation target (Haste, prevents blockers) while not being stupid.





I'm ok with this card. It's stupid and leads to stupid wins out of nowhere. But so far it's filling a role in my cube that no other card does. It helps the struggling green ramp/Survival decks close the game and makes Reanimator care about other creatures. It's in fact not great in control Reanimator, which I like.

I would look into other staple green fatties, like the bee but I'm told those are kind of unfun.



A low-rank control finisher that punches above its weight. Being able to cycle is nice and it works well in Reanimator decks because it's a 5/5 flyer.


BIG CREATURES I'M NOT HAPPY WITH



Pelakka Wurm has dissapointed me. It's too small and boring to be a good ramp and reanimation target but the life gain is high enough to put aggro out of contention. I'm just not fond of spending a lot of mana to put a 7/7 lifegain wall in play and the card draw almost never comes up.



I thought this card would be fin, but it has proven nasty. Aggro can recover from a board wipe, but it can't recover from a 6/5 creature that will kill them in two hits. Most of the time, Massacre Wurm hits play (often through Reanimation), wipes the board and then it either forces a stall or swings to victory.



This is another classic Reanimator target but I'm not too happy about it. He hasn't proven great in control, can't survive Wildfire and is often mediocre in Reanimator itself. Unlike constructed, you have a fairly limited amount of bombs and spending a pick in one that only draws cards





This is a bad card. Compare this to the four mana Nekraatal, even if you cheat it into play or use Welder to bring it back it's not worth it.



This should work, but doesn't. It's ok in so far it helps you find another reanimation spell, fills the graveyard and works in midrange decks but it feels kind of dull to me and I often feel I would rather run something else.



I love this card. It's a great design, fun and versatile due its artifact status. But I'm finding it somewhat of a luxury. If it could survive Wildfire, it would see more play in my cube, that's for sure.

CARDS I'M CONSIDERING




I wish this wasn't a multicoloured card. It's versatile, it's not too expensive for a control deck. It can be casted by Reanimator and is neither dumb nor weak in that case. It can potentially survive Wildfire. The problem is the WWBB cost. As much as I would like to push for WB Control, I'm not sure I can justify the slot over Sin Collector, Kambal, Consul of Allocation and Lingering Souls.

As you can see, my fatties are on the low mana side. I'm looking into some bigger creatures but I don't think I want Eldrazis in a cube with so many cheat effects.
 
Good write-up. I found a lot of these cards to be evaluated differently in my own environment, so as with all these discussions it's crucial to state the reference power level for the discussion, otherwise it's just baseless opinions.

Are we talking a wadell-ian higher power cube here?
 
Good write-up. I found a lot of these cards to be evaluated differently in my own environment, so as with all these discussions it's crucial to state the reference power level for the discussion, otherwise it's just baseless opinions.

Are we talking a wadell-ian higher power cube here?
Yeah, I should state what power level I'm aiming for.

Generally, I'm aiming for a moderate power level with powerful cards (Sneak Attack, Tinker, Survival of the Fittest) neutered by carefully crafting the environment. The goal is a power level similar in feel to that of old Extended. But feel free to use to discuss fatties in cube in general and any and all power levels.
 
Here are a few of my favorites:



This might be my favorite reanimation target. She's perfect. There are so many different decision points with her, and they're all tasty. She can get you ahead on board, but if your opponent kills her, they get their cards back. Alternately, you can drop her on an empty board late in the game when the graveyards are stuffed and if she dies again she can draw you a ton of gas from your graveyard. She just feels very powerful without being backbreaking, which is exactly where I want to be.



A classic. So classic that Hearthstone basically copied her and it's still one of my favorite cards.



I don't really agree that anything that costs 5 mana is a 'fatty' (that's reserved for 6+ drops) but since Thundermaw Hellkite is up there, and we already mentioned Massacre Wurm, I thought I'd bring up the much better card with Massacre in its name. She usually wipes the board, but in a way that requires a bit of set up. She's also evasive but smaller than Wurm so she still puts your opponent on a pretty good clock but in a way they have a little time to respond to. Again, super powerful feeling but not utterly backbreaking.



This is a perfect Magic card and I cannot believe you would slander its good name. Pistols at dawn.
 
I am just here to comment three things:

1. Sylvanas Windrunner was 5 mana at some point :D
2. I also like Pelakka Wurm



Other than the inelegant anti-reanimator clause, I think Darksteel Colossus is one of the best magic designs. It's huge, it's indestructible but it doesn't win the game on its own without taking at least three turns. You can actually cast it if you have some mana acceleration and I have some appreciation of him as a long-time Tooth and Nail player.

I hate that they made a strictly better version of him that is awfully designed.

3. Blightsteel Colossus is not strickly better since it costs more mana. A very relevant fact when talking about 'strickly better' and when you have already brought up that you actually can cast it if you have some mana acceleration.

I think I will have to give Massacre Girl a test! I love mini games.
 
I like Pelakka Wurm, too.

Massacre Girl looks hard to evaluate but also interesting.

Love Eternal Dragon and Crater Hellion.
 
This is SO power level dependent. I also have a hard time calling a morphed up 4 drop a "fatty" as well as any 5 drops. I'm even borderline 6 drops. Calling Meteor Golem inherently "bad" isn't a fair assessment, either. You've also listed a 3/3 and a 3/4 as a "fatty" in the OP. You also call Torrential Gearhulk pushed, but it sounds like you're running Tinker, Sneak Attack, etc.

I know this all sounds nitpicky, but it could be the basis of your problem. It sounds like you don't know what you're looking for in a fatty or for your power level.

Sorry to dismantle your post and not offer any cards to you, but I'm not entirely sure what you're after.
___

I like Pelakka Wurm, but it's format dependent. It can be such a closer to gain 7 life that you need a strong pressure deck or no access to legitimate ramp/reanimation. Basically, your aggressive decks need to be directly on par with how difficult it is to deal with 7 life gained and a 7/7. I do think it deserves to close out against those decks most of the time, but it shouldn't be positioned as an easily obtained blowout.

The possibility for Massacre Girl to ETB Wrath and get a 4/4 is too scary for my format and is probably only right in something a notch or two below power max. Also potentially high variance, which I don't love.

Keiga creates so damn much tension. Bit too strong for what I've got right now, but loved it when I used to use it. Like, shit, they could take my best guy away... but if I swing my guy into Keiga and then bolt it... then... shit, they will take my second best guy anyways. Kokusho and Yosei look like they're still good and a step down from Keiga. All of them are rewarding to loop or get multiple uses out of, as well.

I personally enjoy how Darksteel Colossus doesn't have that much relevant text (the shuffle thing is excessively wordy) but gets the job done. 11/11. Trample. Indestructible. Doesn't need much more than that. Just bash away.



I guess it doesn't really matter which fatties you run. Just look at it and decide if it wrecks what you've got too badly (Atarka was miserable when I used it) or if it seems appropriately placed in your format. There's a TON of options.
 
This is SO power level dependent. I also have a hard time calling a morphed up 4 drop a "fatty" as well as any 5 drops. I'm even borderline 6 drops. Calling Meteor Golem inherently "bad" isn't a fair assessment, either. You've also listed a 3/3 and a 3/4 as a "fatty" in the OP. You also call Torrential Gearhulk pushed, but it sounds like you're running Tinker, Sneak Attack, etc.

I know this all sounds nitpicky, but it could be the basis of your problem. It sounds like you don't know what you're looking for in a fatty or for your power level.


This post right here illustrates why it is so difficult to discuss cube theory in specific strokes. Fatties (and what makes a fatty "good") is heavily dependent on format. Arcanis the Omnipotent probably did actually qualify as a fatty at one point, despite only being a 3/4, because the quality of creatures back in the day was much lower. Even now, a dude with 4 toughness is going to be fat in a format full of 3/3s. Out of all the fatties on Eric's original list, the only one I run is Eternal Dragon. That certainly doesn't mean I'm not running any fatties, but they're different cards and they fill different roles in addition to fat boi.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
So... I'm running at a medium power level, though specifically in my cube mana rocks have been nerfed (they start at cmc 3, and only start adding 2 mana at cmc 4+), and I don't run much cheaty stuff. The earliest you can reanimate something is typically turn four. So, most fatties are meant to be hardcast in my format, though it is possible to draft and craft a deck for the late game. There's actually a few fatties I love that haven't been mentioned yet.


This just defends so well, often taking out two of villain's attackers while still getting in for 4 per turn. Great card to get down early too, I assume.


It looks innocuous, but when unanswered, this thing goes to town, producing ever increasing numbers of tokens. Another thing I like about it, is that it's often good in race situations, because it makes a blocker when it connects.


This card has a fattie mode and a go wide mode, which is already great, but the fattie mode can do some sweet combo kills. I once won a stalemate by ticking up Tezzeret the Schemer until I had lethal.


This red fattie has been the most fun one I've ever run. Giving it haste has been extremely satisfying :)


Can't believe no one brought this one up. I love it! The base body is so green, it got to be a much reprinted common, and the etb ability scales nicely with your format. In my cube it's just pure ramp/color fixing, whereas in power max it can tutor for bonkers stuff.


Another great uncommon fattie. Once this gets down, the game can be over really fast. This typically can't be brought down with the classic chump block + a removal spell because of its hexproof ability, while still offering outs like Vindicate (or whatever removal you run in your multicolored section). Plus, artifact synergy!


Talking of which... Yeah, that's some sweet, sweet value on a fattie body right there! The times this card disappointed me can be counted on zero hands. It's great :)


A perfect cross between value, synergy, and self-protection, this guy keeps finding ways to pop up in decks and doing good things. I've tried to replace him a few times, but I always come back around.


There can be only one ultimate fattie though, it's my man, my all-time favorite, the one and only... ZA-CA-MAAAAAAAA!!! LET'S GO! Seriously though, if you've built a format where it's feasible to survive until 9 mana, Zacama is the bomb. It's activated abilities are a great, great bundle, whether you need to get out of burn range, or if there are some permanents on the board you need to clear up, big daddy Zacama has got you covered! I've got nothing but praise for this dinosaur. Rawr!
 

There can be only one ultimate fattie though, it's my man, my all-time favorite, the one and only... ZA-CA-MAAAAAAAA!!! LET'S GO!

Emrakul laughs in annihilator.

Wait I got another one.

Bolas laughs in YOINK, mine!

----

Those are some very interesting fatties! Are they deceptively fun looking because I have rarely played with them or are they actually fun, always?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Emrakul laughs in annihilator.

Wait I got another one.

Bolas laughs in YOINK, mine!

----

Those are some very interesting fatties! Are they deceptively fun looking because I have rarely played with them or are they actually fun, always?

Haha, yeah, Zecama's definitely not unanswerable, but so, sooo satisfying to play! Emrakul doesn't get to play with the rest om my fatties though, he's in the naughty corner (also, with no way to cheat him in in my cube, he's actually really, really bad, I suspect). Bolas, however, does say YOINK, mine! There's a reason Bolas is a fan favorite among my drafters :)

I love all of these fatties, though some are more annoying to play against then others. Like, Sentinel of the Eternal Watch is a ***** to get through, and you better have saved some pinpoint removal for her, or you're in trouble! Playing the Sentinel yourself though, again, very satisfying. She can single-handedly stabilize the board! The other one that can be annoying to play against is Sphinx of the Guildpact, but it's 7 mana, and I have a heavy multicolor component in my cube. I mean, imagine getting Villain this off of Tinker in a cube where there's exactly one out in Hero's colors in the card pool.
 
Bolas

I still have my suspicions that the whole reason why you run a skewed color pie and only support 5 'Shards' started with the craving to make Bolas a playable card in your cube :p ;)'
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Bolas

I still have my suspicions that the whole reason why you run a skewed color pie and only support 5 'Shards' started with the craving to make Bolas a playable card in your cube :p ;)'

And I will deny feverishly that Grixis has been the only three-color combination that has been in all of the iterations of my cube's color wheel! That time that we had to reset the draft after something went awry with the picks, and three of my players found out they had all been drafting solid Grixis decks while being seated next to each other is anecdotal evidence for our love for Bolas's shard at best! At best, do you hear me! :p
 
Cool, I've just been thinking of revamping my fatties. To start with, a (loose) definition of what I consider to be a fattie - any creature that is:
  1. Unable to be blocked profitably by the majority of creatures in the cube, and;
  2. Through raw size, is enough of a threat that the opponent needs to start blocking it.
From that, which role can fatties serve in your cube? They can be control finishers, board stabilizers, rewards for combo, curve toppers - and of course, fatties should make you drafters want to play them!
Recently I've looking on changing out my fatties for those that align with my cube goals and environment (upper-mid powered, emphasis on growing creatures larger). What I'm trying to do primarily is push my fatties to break through board stalls, while minimizing their role as mid-range stabilizers.

Fatties I've loved or am excited to run:

'Mini' craterhoof, a big pig with trample and haste that's usually come down for 6. Overrun effects naturally cracks boards, and it's tempered a bit by demanding a sacrifice. And running big pigs at people is fine.

A fattie for the finisher role, huge recursive creatures naturally break down the opponents board or kill them outright as you aren't too concerned with throwing it away. Another fattie which demands a level of commitment to drafting around it.

This big chungus seems perfect for board stalls - huge, recursive and easiest to convoke into play if both sides have 3+ creatures staring down at one another. Heavy build-around demands though, excited to see how this one plays out...

The biggest beef in my cube, it loves wrecking board stalls. Graveyard build-around, finishes games fast, and the 'on cast' trigger hints to drafters I don't support fatty-cheat reanimator (I don't). Taking someone's turn might make them upset, but 13/13 ensures they'll be dead soon anyway and it's damage is directly proportional to how long they durdled for.
 
the problem i have with me fatties is that i cant draw a line between 'top-of-the-curve' midrange cards (5-6-7 cmc ) and actual ramp payoff.
I mean my green drafter is likely to see a pelakka o whatever and draft a bunch of yours usual ramp tools (tribe elder , mana dorks ,ecc..).
Meanwhile across the table someone else si just putting together removal,draw spells and looking forward to cast his drifters,sphinxes obtaining similar risults.
Should i decrease the power level of my "drifters" or just cut narrow ramp cards to avoid tricking Timmy players?
(now that i think about it most of the ramp cards are pretty 'poisounous').

As always sorry for my poor writing skills,
 
Hm, I don't know if there really needs to be a difference. To some extended anything 6+ cmc is always going to require deck building considerations to be playable, since it will take maybe 10+ turns to naturally draw all those lands. Even for 5-6 cmc cards though, they can both fit as midrange toppers and targets for a ramp strategy. The difference, I think, is that the ramp strategy gets to those high cmc cards faster. Ramping is a form of resource aquisition, so I don't think its poisonous.
 
Look at the difference between, say


Harrow isn't going to (generally) be a poisonous ramp card, it has utility in other strategies (graveyard, lands-matter, sacrifice maybe) and can help splash other colors.

Nissa's Triumph on the other hand, is only going into very green-heavy ramp strategies that only care about ramping out mana. That's all it's ever going to do. It's much more narrow, and a ramp section full of these more narrow cards could border poisonous.

Again, look at the difference between, say


Not a lot of decks are going to want get to Pelakka Wurm on their curve, and they have to be pretty heavy green to do so. So mostly (but not always true) the Wurm is going to be wheeling around the draft, unwanted by anyone but the ramp player. Sounds poisonous?

Compare to 'ol Polukranos, who is equally a great fatty and ramp pay-off, but whose mana cost and body fit well in attacking decks as well. This card will just get played in more decks and won't always play the same in each of those decks.


I think there's a bit of exaggeration in my post, but those are the kind of ways you should think about The Poison Principle with respect to ramp. Does only one deck want this card? Or are there multiple ways a card could play out. It's okay to a have a few narrow cards, but when a whole section/archetype looks narrow, maybe its time to take a critical look.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Jeez venny, ramp has feelings too! :p

If ramp is one of green's core identities in your cube, it's okay to put in a three or four (or whatever number works for you) "poisonous" ramp cards in your cube. That means your green ramp drafter can actually pick up that ramp that's vital to the plan, and hope to wheel the Pelakka Wurm. Which still might get snapped up by the reanimator drafter, mind you!
 
I mean by the same argument a lot of cards would be poisonous because only a few strategies want them. The problem between Pelakka Wurm and Polukranos isn't the casting cost I don't think, its the power level difference. Polukranos (a mythic card) is in my opinion a very strong card, much more so than pelakka wurm (that is an uncommon, originally!).

But I do think there's a point in making sure several strategies viably can cast expensive cards. I do not agree that only ramp want expensive cards.
 
Jeez venny, ramp has feelings too! :p

If ramp is one of green's core identities in your cube, it's okay to put in a three or four (or whatever number works for you) "poisonous" ramp cards in your cube. That means your green ramp drafter can actually pick up that ramp that's vital to the plan, and hope to wheel the Pelakka Wurm. Which still might get snapped up by the reanimator drafter, mind you!

It's okay to a have a few narrow cards, but when a whole section/archetype looks narrow, maybe its time to take a critical look.

That was my conclusion as well. I didn't mean to say that Pelakka is unplayable or that no deck wants it, but it's going to take a lot more for a deck to play an expensive 4CCC card than a 2CC card. Nor am I trying to make a power-level analysis of the cards. I'm giving an example in the framework I would use to evaluate a section by the poison principle.
 
Wurm works well in ramp, top end of midrange, some rare green control deck, and any sort of reanimation package.

Obviously, we don't want to inundate our curves with 7s and 8s, but I think it's a little crazy to label having a few as poisonous. Like, I get your point that not many decks want Wurm, but the decks that DO want it don't exist without a few slots dedicated to some fat.
 
If you design your cube with some of the best Limited/Draft formats in mind, you will already add some mana sinks to it (like Polukranos). If you can gather enough of those, you actually do have reasons to play ramp. :) The creatures that are big and expensive, like Eternal Dragon, should fit into more types of decks as well. ED for example does so for Wx control, Cycling and Reanimator.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Obviously, we don't want to inundate our curves with 7s and 8s, but I think it's a little crazy to label having a few as poisonous.

This probably depends on the speed of the cube. If it's fast enough that no regular midrange deck is ever hitting 8 mana without investment, then they might be poisonous.

If games are ending on turns 5-6, it's narrow because the only way it's hitting play is with heavy ramp or heavy control elements.
If games are going to turn 14, then including an 8 drop in a random deck isn't as far fetched.
 
are we all collectively forgetting reanimation?

I think "poison" is being a little over-thought here, tbh. Large creatures don't absolutely restrict themselves to one goal like infect et al do. Poison principle is about isolation of archetypes, which a) doesn't really apply to fatties specifically on their own, and b) is quite difficult to do without some extreme focus on one particular and unique ramp strategy. See above about reanimation for only one example of a way to almost ensure fatties aren't """poisonous""" in a cube
 
I agree with sigh here!

I understand the sentiment made by others about high cmc being inaccessible to many decks, but having a 7-drop doesn't mean you're completely on the rails locked in to drafting a specific deck. There are many ways to draft a deck that wants to play an expensive creature (control, ramp, reanimator, slower midrange even), but only one way to draft the infect deck.
 
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