Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
I'm running Dead Weight right now, but that's due to explicit enchantress support. If I didn't have that, Ulcerate would compete for the slot pretty hard.
It's really a question of if you want a black Lightning Bolt variant or not. When you have no (or very little) 1cmc removal at instant speed, you'll find that combat tricks, auras, and equipment become significantly more playable, which I find more fun than the experience of having super-cheap, super-efficient removal more plentiful. I've tooled my removal power level down significantly over my past several month's worth of updates, and it's given me a much more enjoyable environment in exchange. YPMV.
In general I agree with this (it's one of the reasons I cut Tragic Slip), but I'd be willing to make an exception for Ulcerate. Three life is a very real cost. If you're getting beaten down by aggro, you may never get the ability to cast it. The card was never a slam dunk first pick even in M15 limited.
I agree. It really has a huge tempo cost, so the tempo you gain from bolting a 3 drop should at best casr just even out, worse case its damage control in a losing race right?
It's not a low power card by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it's too much in a life-totals-matter environment.
Ashes to Ashes is kinda similar - huge tempo swing, significant life cost, fits better in aggro than control since you need to do something immediately with your t-word to make it worth it.
Ashes to Ashes is kinda similar - huge tempo swing, significant life cost, fits better in aggro than control since you need to do something immediately with your t-word to make it worth it.
My useless input: I've been playing variable ulcerate (pay x life: -x/-x), and its super good, and I love it. But I probably need to make it a sorcery. 
.
Dead weight is awesome when you can trigger constellation or get it back with auramancer. I may go that direction soon, based of EMA experiences, but I think it would take too much enchant density to really work. Need to look at EMAs enchant count, though.
. Dead weight is awesome when you can trigger constellation or get it back with auramancer. I may go that direction soon, based of EMA experiences, but I think it would take too much enchant density to really work. Need to look at EMAs enchant count, though.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
My useless input: I've been playing variable ulcerate (pay x life: -x/-x), and its super good, and I love it. But I probably need to make it a sorcery.
Dead weight is awesome when you can trigger constellation or get it back with auramancer. I may go that direction soon, based of EMA experiences, but I think it would take too much enchant density to really work. Need to look at EMAs enchant count, though.
?[/Trolling]
I like the thought of auramancer interactions! I don't think the 'utility enchantment' count is high enough to warrant it in most formats, but it could be powerhouse in the right place.
I'm definitely happy with Ulcerate, but really want to see how I can maximize delirium. Especially now that I'm on Traverse the Ulvenwald, I would like to work on the incidental support if possible.
I think deadweight comes very close, but its raw removal power seems too low.... alas (might still try it out tho)
I'm definitely happy with Ulcerate, but really want to see how I can maximize delirium. Especially now that I'm on Traverse the Ulvenwald, I would like to work on the incidental support if possible.
I think deadweight comes very close, but its raw removal power seems too low.... alas (might still try it out tho)
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I really like both cards for different reasons, and this probably isn't a simple binary comparison.
Ulcerate is really appealing because the power level of the removal pushes it into premium removal territory, yet the 3 life cost encourages synergistic interactions with life gain cards. One or two cards like this can be enough to create an entire archetype.
On the other hand, dead weight is a brilliantly designed card. Its powerful enough where it should range between premium to highly effective removal in a lower power format, and its capable of putting an aura into the yard at a very early point in the game, or just sit out there as an enchantment. This can serve as really important glue for synergistic effects like delirium, delve, aura recursion, devotion, aura counting effects, and probably a number of other little synergies I can't think of at the moment. It can be a very, very strong role player in the correct format.
Its also possible to envision scenarios where a format wants both.
Ulcerate is really appealing because the power level of the removal pushes it into premium removal territory, yet the 3 life cost encourages synergistic interactions with life gain cards. One or two cards like this can be enough to create an entire archetype.
On the other hand, dead weight is a brilliantly designed card. Its powerful enough where it should range between premium to highly effective removal in a lower power format, and its capable of putting an aura into the yard at a very early point in the game, or just sit out there as an enchantment. This can serve as really important glue for synergistic effects like delirium, delve, aura recursion, devotion, aura counting effects, and probably a number of other little synergies I can't think of at the moment. It can be a very, very strong role player in the correct format.
Its also possible to envision scenarios where a format wants both.
I'm switching it around to dead weight for now. I think I did some math earlier and it still actually hits like 70% of creatures in my cube, or something like that.
On the topic of incidental enchantments that can easily go to the graveyard, how's about:
or ?
Shock, but sorcery speed (in the same turn), and a freely sacrificial enchantment/artifact.
I really love delirium for how much it allows both a format designer and a drafter to go truly deep on getting it going.
On the topic of incidental enchantments that can easily go to the graveyard, how's about:
or ?Shock, but sorcery speed (in the same turn), and a freely sacrificial enchantment/artifact.
I really love delirium for how much it allows both a format designer and a drafter to go truly deep on getting it going.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
If I had to choose, I would go spellbomb, just because artifacts tend to have more incidental interactions than enchantments, but both cards are great if you're trying to promote those kinds of structures.
As an alternative (or supplement) to seal of fire (if we are discussing delirium), there is also:
This is where I really enjoy removal design. You're at a spot thats very high up on the BREAD acronym, yet dealing with an element with great cube density. Its a great point to encourage players to break off from power drafting to more interesting territory.
As an alternative (or supplement) to seal of fire (if we are discussing delirium), there is also:
This is where I really enjoy removal design. You're at a spot thats very high up on the BREAD acronym, yet dealing with an element with great cube density. Its a great point to encourage players to break off from power drafting to more interesting territory.
the only major flaw I see in tribal is that not everyone knows they can use it towards stuff like Delirium.
I also enjoy the Spellbomb(s) in that they offer incidental card draw, something that I value very highly. It'd be the reason that I'd consider running Aether Spellbomb too.
Speaking of incidental card draw, I think I need to ship away my
and was thinking of:
I also enjoy the Spellbomb(s) in that they offer incidental card draw, something that I value very highly. It'd be the reason that I'd consider running Aether Spellbomb too.
Speaking of incidental card draw, I think I need to ship away my
and was thinking of:
CML
Contributor
IMO Ulcerate is low-power. Compare it to Dismember! Unless Cube has turned into Legacy, it'll be worse than Doom Blade, too, most of the time ... and the times where you do need a 1-mana removal spell and it'll be better than Disfigure, Tragic Slip, Ghastly Demise, and so on are too infrequent. Plus Darkblast and Tragic Slip are more interesting. I guess you can pay 3 life to exile a permanent at instant speed for 3, but with Ulcerate the effect is just so marginal and the other options are so dope
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Comparing ulcerate to disfigure, tragic slip, and ghastly demise is pretty interesting i.m.o., especially disfigure.
I feel like in many formats, the consistency that ulcerate brings should give it a nod when comparing against slip and demise at least in some decks: some removal hungry decks should be fairly cold to both demise/slip just because they find those particular forms of conditionality cumbersome. That being said, tragic slip is at least clearly more interesting, though I'm not 100% sure about ghastly demise (probably?).
Disfigure to ulcerate comparison is really interesting though, because both cards are so similar. Disfigure's niche is that its extremely efficient removal against the wide array of powerful X/2 creatures out there. However, its conditionality is that its often times so bad outside of that role. Ulcerate going up an additional -1 -1 makes it more flexible against a wide field, but the three life you pay for it feels like a big reduction in inefficency against those small targets, which are a big reason why you would want an ulcerate effect in the first place. It at least puts deck building constraints on you in a way that disfigure does not.
Which might not be a bad thing, depending on what we are doing.
A couple other cards that are interesting direct comparisons:
I feel like ulcerate's niche would be between these and disfigure, where it can go hunting slightly larger game, at somewhat less heavy life loss, and evading the cumbersome "can't target" clause.
After all, one other factor here in the comparison is that you don't want to push a form of de facto protection on your black creatures.
I had considered bringing up ashes to ashes, but in retrospect, that is probably more low power mass removal than spot removal.
I feel like in many formats, the consistency that ulcerate brings should give it a nod when comparing against slip and demise at least in some decks: some removal hungry decks should be fairly cold to both demise/slip just because they find those particular forms of conditionality cumbersome. That being said, tragic slip is at least clearly more interesting, though I'm not 100% sure about ghastly demise (probably?).
Disfigure to ulcerate comparison is really interesting though, because both cards are so similar. Disfigure's niche is that its extremely efficient removal against the wide array of powerful X/2 creatures out there. However, its conditionality is that its often times so bad outside of that role. Ulcerate going up an additional -1 -1 makes it more flexible against a wide field, but the three life you pay for it feels like a big reduction in inefficency against those small targets, which are a big reason why you would want an ulcerate effect in the first place. It at least puts deck building constraints on you in a way that disfigure does not.
Which might not be a bad thing, depending on what we are doing.
A couple other cards that are interesting direct comparisons:
I feel like ulcerate's niche would be between these and disfigure, where it can go hunting slightly larger game, at somewhat less heavy life loss, and evading the cumbersome "can't target" clause.
After all, one other factor here in the comparison is that you don't want to push a form of de facto protection on your black creatures.
I had considered bringing up ashes to ashes, but in retrospect, that is probably more low power mass removal than spot removal.
Ashes to Ashes is pretty frickin nuts, I loved it. It was a casualty for Liliana of the Veil - I wanted to cut some powerful removal to balance around her bomb level - though I could certainly see bringing it in again someday.
CML
Contributor
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
"Low power" doesn't mean the card has to be bad, or actively inefficient: Ashes to Ashes is low power compared to actual mass removal like damnation, while snuff out only sees fringe play in pauper.
It usually just seems to be a card thats marginalized somewhat in current magic design, or which has some conditionality on it that makes it awkward when taken out of a certain setting.
It usually just seems to be a card thats marginalized somewhat in current magic design, or which has some conditionality on it that makes it awkward when taken out of a certain setting.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Sure, but than again, so does/did this guy in vintage shops
Brainstorm is another card like that, whose playability and power level varies tremendously with a formats supporting architecture.
That being said, perhaps in the context of cube, none of the factors that reduce snuff outs power level might be present. In pauper, there is so much pressure that you can't really use life as a resource, but I know in a lot of other eternal formats thats not really the case. Not being able to target black creatures is also a major headache in that format, seeing as one of the tier 1 decks is a mono black deck.
Honestly, it never occurred to me that someone might consider snuff out a high power card, so this is a new perspective to me. Thats more like swords or path to me.
Brainstorm is another card like that, whose playability and power level varies tremendously with a formats supporting architecture.
That being said, perhaps in the context of cube, none of the factors that reduce snuff outs power level might be present. In pauper, there is so much pressure that you can't really use life as a resource, but I know in a lot of other eternal formats thats not really the case. Not being able to target black creatures is also a major headache in that format, seeing as one of the tier 1 decks is a mono black deck.
Honestly, it never occurred to me that someone might consider snuff out a high power card, so this is a new perspective to me. Thats more like swords or path to me.
Ashes suffers a bit from being double black and requiring two targets. It's certainly good and I also wouldn't call it low power.
Snuff out on the other hand is hands down the best terror-style removal spell ever printed. Not only is it not low power, it's too good for my list (which isn't exactly a low power list) and only gets better the faster and more powerful your cube is. Free spells are extremely strong in general, and this is a free instant speed removal spell. It's bonkers.
Snuff out on the other hand is hands down the best terror-style removal spell ever printed. Not only is it not low power, it's too good for my list (which isn't exactly a low power list) and only gets better the faster and more powerful your cube is. Free spells are extremely strong in general, and this is a free instant speed removal spell. It's bonkers.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Snuff Out is seeing a mini-resurgence thanks to killing Thought-Knot Seer(/Reality Smasher)
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I would think it would be worse the faster your cube format is, because the 4 life loss would actually matter. Pauper is very fast, and its only fringe playable there.
If an efficient threat is trying to kill you, often times the opponent is happy to trade that threat for the 4 life you paid for snuff out. Or at least thats the major problem I have with it in that format.
If an efficient threat is trying to kill you, often times the opponent is happy to trade that threat for the 4 life you paid for snuff out. Or at least thats the major problem I have with it in that format.
I can't compare high powered lists to pauper lists because I haven't played pauper. All I can do is look at how the meta in my own cube has changed over the years as the average power level has unquestionably increased. And having immediate answers for things is just more and more important now due to how quickly games can get away from you. You get that with Snuff Out because you can cast it for free and it's an instant to boot.
The list of things I'm typically happy to kill while losing 4 life is a mile long. And later in the game when I have the mana, I don't have to pay the life.
Most importantly though, I can continue developing my board and applying my own pressure with basically zero compromise because I didn't have to hold up or use any mana to cast Snuff Out. It's just a retarded card.
I imagine the power of that card goes down a bit if boards have to develop and there's time to react to things. A 4 mana doom blade clearly isn't great if that's all you ever play it as.
The list of things I'm typically happy to kill while losing 4 life is a mile long. And later in the game when I have the mana, I don't have to pay the life.
Most importantly though, I can continue developing my board and applying my own pressure with basically zero compromise because I didn't have to hold up or use any mana to cast Snuff Out. It's just a retarded card.
I imagine the power of that card goes down a bit if boards have to develop and there's time to react to things. A 4 mana doom blade clearly isn't great if that's all you ever play it as.