Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight

ravnic

ravnic

I'm at it again.



I've heard this card was quite the bomb in DTK limited, but there you had morphs at common and uncommon to pick up. In my cube I have "only" 15 morphs, 4 of them in green. Now I am asking myself 2 questions:
Is this card maybe too mean in midrange-y decks? (They sometimes have 3-4 morphs)
Is this card really worth it in an aggro madness deck? (which probably just runs a lone Gathan Raiders or Nantuko Vigilant)

Any opinions?
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

ravnic said:
I'm at it again.



I've heard this card was quite the bomb in DTK limited, but there you had morphs at common and uncommon to pick up. In my cube I have "only" 15 morphs, 4 of them in green. Now I am asking myself 2 questions:
Is this card maybe too mean in midrange-y decks? (They sometimes have 3-4 morphs)
Is this card really worth it in an aggro madness deck? (which probably just runs a lone Gathan Raiders or Nantuko Vigilant)

Any opinions?
Click to expand...

No, it's not too mean in midrange since it's literally just a 3/3 that very occasionally comes back to play from the bin.

No, it's not worth it specifically for aggro madness either. You might sometimes be able to bring it back occasionally, but I think most of the time it just ends up as a 3/3 for 3 with a "block deterrent" ability in aggressive decks. The fact is, aggro madness is a very narrow archetype, especially since green doesn't have a whole lot of madness cards or discard synergies. That's not to say that the deck is bad or anything, it obviously isn't. I think you need to stop thinking about things in terms of "is this card good in one specific archetype" and look more through the lens of "does this card fit into a type of deck." Think about this deck that you posted today on Cube Cobra. Would you play raptor in this? I'd argue that you probably would not. Why? Because this version of the R/G deck, despite having good top-end madness synergies, is really just a Red-based aggro deck. Since green is your second color that you're mainly using to bring the beef, you don't really want to be playing a hard-to-cast beater like the Raptor. Meanwhile, take a look at this deck I drafted. Would you play raptor in this deck? I would. Even though I don't have the best morph synergies on the planet, and even my discard part of the deck is a little weaker than your example, the raptor would fit my curve nicely as a hard to block creature for my 3 mana slot, regardless of wether or not I'm bringing it out of the bin on a regular basis.

Basically, think less about the cute synergies that cards can have and more about what the card does on it's floor. I'm not playing Aphemia, the Cacophony because of her ability to exile enchantments from the yard, despite the fact that I'm trying to make an enchantment deck work. I'm playing her because she's a decent 2-mana beater for my black decks that also just happens to be good with my enchantment decks.

So, is a 3/3 deathtouch with Megamorph for {4}{G} a card you're in the market for? Or, are you just interested because it comes out of the bin for free once in a blue moon? I think once you answer this question you'll have an easier time making this decision.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I LOVE Deathmist Raptor but it's the perfect example of a card that's strong with only a handful of specific cards making it hard to do anything with reliably. You can't set up these format-defining Den Protector + Raptor chains when you only have one of each
 
ravnic

ravnic

TrainmasterGT said:
No, it's not too mean in midrange since it's literally just a 3/3 that very occasionally comes back to play from the bin.

No, it's not worth it specifically for aggro madness either. You might sometimes be able to bring it back occasionally, but I think most of the time it just ends up as a 3/3 for 3 with a "block deterrent" ability in aggressive decks. The fact is, aggro madness is a very narrow archetype, especially since green doesn't have a whole lot of madness cards or discard synergies. That's not to say that the deck is bad or anything, it obviously isn't. I think you need to stop thinking about things in terms of "is this card good in one specific archetype" and look more through the lens of "does this card fit into a type of deck." Think about this deck that you posted today on Cube Cobra. Would you play raptor in this? I'd argue that you probably would not. Why? Because this version of the R/G deck, despite having good top-end madness synergies, is really just a Red-based aggro deck. Since green is your second color that you're mainly using to bring the beef, you don't really want to be playing a hard-to-cast beater like the Raptor. Meanwhile, take a look at this deck I drafted. Would you play raptor in this deck? I would. Even though I don't have the best morph synergies on the planet, and even my discard part of the deck is a little weaker than your example, the raptor would fit my curve nicely as a hard to block creature for my 3 mana slot, regardless of wether or not I'm bringing it out of the bin on a regular basis.

Basically, think less about the cute synergies that cards can have and more about what the card does on it's floor. I'm not playing Aphemia, the Cacophony because of her ability to exile enchantments from the yard, despite the fact that I'm trying to make an enchantment deck work. I'm playing her because she's a decent 2-mana beater for my black decks that also just happens to be good with my enchantment decks.

So, is a 3/3 deathtouch with Megamorph for {4}{G} a card you're in the market for? Or, are you just interested because it comes out of the bin for free once in a blue moon? I think once you answer this question you'll have an easier time making this decision.
Click to expand...



Actually, the reason I asked about the raptor was kinda the deck I drafted yesterday on cube cobra. An issue I have yet with my R/G aggro decks (although it's not really a problem), is that sometimes they are heavy red, sometimes equal (like in the deck you drafted), but all in all green is less represented. So, for the thousandth time I looked for potential green cards, that lead you that way, so during a draft, you wouldn't always come from the red side maybe.

A huge step I made recently made, to make the archetype less narrow (sadly you're right too here), is that I cut all the cards that didn't match either one of two criteria:
- They are good in G/R aggro without madness synergies
- They are good in other archetypes

Burning-Fist Minotaur is a solid aggressive 2-drop, so it stayed. Ravenous Bloodseeker didn't do any good without something to discard, so it got cut.
Vengevine was a fine curve topper if you had to hardcast it, so it stayed. Arrogant Wurm wasn't and got cut.
Cards liek Roar of the Wurm and Fiery Temper also stayed, since they are playable in other archetypes.

Pretty basic stuff, but admittedly I got a little off rail during the last few months, always trying to make that archetype work. But now it is back to a healthy state. Sometimes the decks just win by curving Jackal Pup into Mother Bear into Stromkirk Occultist, but sometimes you also get to discard Anger to Wild Mongrel turn two and slam for 3 hasty damage. There is some luck to it, but with a high floor, you can't fall too hard, and players seem to like the thrill so far.

So I guess I shouldn't make the same mistake twice and have too high hopes in raptor returning. a 3/3 deathtouch for {1}{G}{G} is pretty decent though. And it would be sweet to have, maybe once a year, see a deck utilizing morphs with him and Vesuvan Shapeshifter, oh boy. I think I'm going to add Raptor when Loathsome Chimera doesn't play great in the next few drafts.
 
sigh

sigh

It's not necessarily bad that G is less represented in that particular archetype. As long as there are other archetypes that G excels more in, I see no worries. I truthfully see Loathsome Chimera playing overall better for that deck and the general cube. At least a similar level of effectiveness, and without any weird morph "synergies" clogging up drafting strategy.
 
ravnic

ravnic

I was looking for combat tricks in white and this one woke some interest innme:



Considering how sweet Shelter is in my cube, a combat trick that has the fail case of cycling doesn't seem bad, and if it works (95% of white decks are creature heavy here) it can easily give you a 2 for 1. Is it good?
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

This might be a bit beyond the scope of this thread but....Please help me evaluate Bouncelands.



Original Ravnica used to be considered the best limited format of all time and I was lucky enough to play it back in the day. However, more and more people are pointing out that no, it's actually quite broken because the Bouncelands are de facto ramp, fixing and card advantage. Bouncelands are pick ones over practically every other card and 4-5 colour decks are the right way to play. And I can see that. But I don't really understand it.

For example, do Bouncelands make cards in the 5-7 mana cost category more playable? I suppose so. But I don't really know.

I don't know, just share what you guys think :)
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Bouncelands are sweet for slower decks. Problem in Ravnica was that they were printed at common, and the power level and speed of the format was much lower than that of your typical cube. They're great for cube, honestly.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Yeah, they were plenty in Ravnica, and maybe a bit too good for the format, but they came together with the incredible ramp and fixing of signets, ALSO at common. I don't think either alone would have such a strong impact, but the signets are probably even "worse", which is why they are my only rarity shift (to uncommon) in my ravnica remastered cube/draft sim.

Also in regular cube I think they are better because they actually ramp you while the bounce lands only add a land to your hand. That being said, I run both cycles happily.
 
Hillstyle

Hillstyle

I've run a (nearly) full cycle of bouncelands for a while, and they are always nice in any deck that can afford to have them come in tapped. They're not too good by any means, the awkwardness of tapping for 2 at a time, the coming-in-tapped, the vulnerability to land destruction (if you run any - for me it's only Flickerwisp and Acidic Slime), and the fact that the card advantage is always a land make the upside extremely fair.
 
japahn

japahn

Whoa, I hadn't realized it was a "leaves play" ability and not "dies". I guess I took that mental shortcut in '97 and never actually RTFC again.

Although I'm not a big fan of unblockability, this looks like a nice part for blink, is usable elsewhere, but not so good that blink won't a change to draft it. And it's a Wizard! Great find!
 
ravnic

ravnic

I had him in my ninja pauper deck many years ago. Nobody seemed to know about this card and they always were shocked when I ninjutsu'd with it. If you support that archetype and maybe something like voltron this guy should be great.
 
ravnic

ravnic

How much worse is this at ramping compared to llanowar elves?



With 3+ lands in you opening hand, you'll have the same 3 mana on turn 2. Just with one less card in hand. But you won't lose that extra mana when the dork dies. And with landfall it has some shenanigans going, but I want to make sure to have my green landfall enabler be decent in you average green midrange deck.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Sakura-Tribe Scout is not a bad card, but I'm not sure it's comparable to a mana dork. I think it's a more specific kind of card, closer to Exploration or Fastbond.

The problem with these kind of effects is that, the more lands you have, the fewer spells you've drawn and viceversa. You'll have a very high failure rate with Sakura-Tribe Scout and many times in which it just puts 1 land into play once and never does anything.
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

I run Sakura-Tribe Scout and it definitely can't be compared to Llanowar Elves.

In the right deck, it's way cooler to be able to ramp up to say 6 on t4 with it, and immediately profite from doing so.
I don't like classic mana rocks or mana dorks in my list, it's the kind of ramp i just don't like (except for Voyaging Satyr as it works well with Bounce lands). I still want my green section to be the one that fixes and ramps to a certain degree, but I'm still unsure which cards I want for that. What I have so far:






Honorable mention to Traverse the Ulvenwald, I'm pretty unsure if I should consider that card

EDIT: there are some actual fights for the Fight Club in this list, so don't think I run them all. Nissa vs Borderland Ranger for example: I'm not sure which one to run, powerlevel-wise. Also, I'm still thinking if all(!) of the five transforming creature-walkers of Origins would fit my cube, even if Kytheon looks quite lame and Jace quite strong, Chandra quite narrow and Nissa maybe too strong. I also don't know if I want payoffs for having lots of lands in play (Budoka Gardener, Wayward Swordtooth and Nissa, Vastwood Seer).
 
TekLazar

TekLazar

They're a cute Exodia, but even in kitchen-sink magic I could never get them to work. The biggest issue is that you want to cast your cards on curve to keep on board with your opponent, but most token cards are less cmc than them. Yes call of the herd and increasing devotion are the dream, but that rarely happens, and then you get chump-blocked, (also enter the battlefield effects don't work). It's just too niche for not that strong of an effect when I would rather just run overrun. Or even more Riptide-y

I know that it says non-token, but it also applies to all non-token creatures immediately and can work on your opponent's creature, or if you copy flametongue kavu, then the enter the battlefield effect still works when you cast a creature. I know that it's a different deck than what you are suggesting, but it's so much better of a deck, even though enchantments are bad and whatnot. (Great kitchen sink fun I had with this and consuming aberration, but obviously my big baby boy not very viable for cube)
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Mirror weave is actually nuts sometimes. Love turning every thin into a hell rider or your opponents primeval titan

Or monestary mentor
 
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